Recomendations for the LAPD

[js]

Samuel,

Yes. I think some kind of training is usually customary for PD's that buy TL OC's for their officers.

Also, I have gotten the inside story on those two examples of "hype" which you referenced. And they are the plain truth of what happened in the sense that they are taken verbatum from the testimonials of police officers. Hype usually means exaggerated or misleading claims made by advertisers. Below is the American Heritage entry for "hype":

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1. Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion: the hype surrounding the murder trial.

2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material: "It is pure hype, a gigantic PR job" (Saturday Review).

3. An advertising or promotional ploy: "Some restaurant owners in town are cooking up a $75,000 hype to promote New York as 'Restaurant City, U.S.A.'" (New York).

4. Something deliberately misleading; a deception: "[He] says that there isn't any energy crisis at all, that it's all a hype, to maintain outrageous profits for the oil companies" (Joel Oppenheimer).

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And if we both are referencing the same definition for "hype", I would say that the TL website has no hype yet that I have seen.

Now, does it unabashedly and proudly display glowing and positive and enthusiastic material about its' products? Most certainly YES! Do I think there is anything wrong with that? Most certainly not.

Anyway, I suspect that there is a big difference between a little OC spray canister for a womans pocket book, and a TL OC cone spray, and you should not judge the effectiveness of the one based on experience with the other.

CPF LEO? Are you out there? Any of you use the TL OC? What are your thoughts?

 

[beezaur]

"And if we both are referencing the same definition for 'hype', I would say that the TL website has no hype yet that I have seen. . . ."

It is dripping with "salesmanese" for lack of a better term. When I encounter that kind of language, I start to shut it out. I look for detailed information and hard facts. If I don't find any, I disregard the whole thing.

Scott

 

[js]

What I'm suggesting is that you will find "detail information and hard facts" whatever your opinion of the presentation.

And in any case, email Michael Teig directly and make suggestions as to how he could improve the presentation and format of the website. You will be surprised at how willing and able he is in listening and responding. TigerLight is one of the very few companies which keeps track of CPF and the opinions we have. Someone from TL is always checking in on CPF on a regular basis, and every time someone has posted about an issue that needed some sort of customer service solution or intervention, someone from TL was proactive enough to contact the poster before he or she even contacted TL. This is impressive and is the sort of thing that a slick salesmanese type company wouldn't do. In short, TL makes a good product, and they stand behind it, and they care about customer satisfaction. Really, and not just with some phone greeting claim heard in the background while you are on hold.

So, while your distaste for the website is a matter of personal preference, I'd say that any broader implications, intended or not, go far wide of the mark.

 

[beezaur]

js,

You are probably right that the implications go wide of the mark.

I meant it as a criticism of the advertizing, not the product. I was able to find information, as you pointed out, so it was not disregarded.

Surely it is difficult to be legitimately enthusiastic about a great product and not sound like a stereotypical car salesman. They are advertizing to others besides hyper-skeptical engineers though, so I don't think I'll tell them how to advertize. It just doesn't appeal to me.

Scott

 

[Samuel]

JS,

Got your PM. Thanks for the relay of Mr Teig's message. If it's ok with Mr Teig, I would have no problems with either one of us posting his well written reply to my comments (that would only be fair).

Most of my experience has in fact been with First Defense OC and Freeze +P and Clear Out CS/OC. I will have to make it a point to purchase some of the other, more potent, brands/models that Mr Teig mentioned in his email and find some time (when I don't have anything else going on for the day) to test them on myself. Your and Mr Teig's comments on comparing apples and oranges in the chemical agent product marketplace are duly noted.

As far as "hype" goes, perhaps I poorly chose the term to use. I think Beez's "salesmanese" may be more apropos. And maybe that's because I don't use phrases like "full attack mode" and "curl up in the fetal position and scream for mercy" in my use of force reports. Also, not to MMQ, but I would hope that every LEO trains to immediately put LEAD (not a chemical agent) into a BG who is "pulling up his gun to blow your head off".

I still stand by my opinions on design and will also add that one additional factor precludes me from carrying a Tigerlight (or D sized Mag) on duty - the barrel diameter. Due to my hand size and years of training in the FMA's, anything other than 1" or 1 1/8" diameter cylinders in my hand doesn't feel "right".

I would recommend, however, that people try the system for themselves to see if it works for them...

 

[js]

Samuel,

Good exchange going on here! Thanks so much for being a gentleman and level-headed. It's more than I can say for my own self sometimes.

Not being a LEO myself, I am way out of my leauge in making any comments on the merrits and drawbacks of various pepper spray delivery systems. I leave that to people like you and Mr. Teig.

As for the hype, I also have a preference for language that is a bit less dramatic, but I am an idiot when it comes to marketing and advertising and politics, and so I leave that whole issue alone. As long as there is no false claim or factual exaggeration going on, that is.

Anyway, thanks again. CPF truly has a bunch of great people.

 

[js]

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beezaur said:
js,

You are probably right that the implications go wide of the mark.

I meant it as a criticism of the advertizing, not the product. I was able to find information, as you pointed out, so it was not disregarded.

Surely it is difficult to be legitimately enthusiastic about a great product and not sound like a stereotypical car salesman. They are advertizing to others besides hyper-skeptical engineers though, so I don't think I'll tell them how to advertize. It just doesn't appeal to me.

Scott

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Scott,

Well said, and I also have a preference for advertising that is a little less dramatic in presentation, but that's just me, and I'm probably in a similar aesthetic camp to hyper-skeptical engineers.

 

[Samuel]

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js said:

Thanks so much for being a gentleman and level-headed.

<<< That's a vicious rumor you're spreading there! Just wait until you get to know me... lol>>>

It's more than I can say for my own self sometimes.

<<< not from what I've read from you>>>

Not being a LEO myself, I am way out of my leauge in making any comments on the merrits and drawbacks of various pepper spray delivery systems. I leave that to people like you and Mr. Teig.

<<< lol you don't have to be an LEO to know what irritates you or causes you pain or what product does it "better". And, as far as tactics or force options are concerned, it all comes down to individual experiences, training, strengths and lesser strengths, comfort/proficiency with tools/techniques, etc. Survey 10 different LEOs and you might get 10 different approaches to handling a particular situation. >>>

CPF truly has a bunch of great people.

<<< Hey, I'm just a guest in your guys' house! Although I may not personally like or find useful every product that you guys make, I definitely appreciate and respect all the efforts of people like you, Mr Teig, and all the other outstanding inventors and modders here at CPF. You guys keep the wheels of progress turning (and my credit card company and paypal happy). >>>



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