Recomendations for the LAPD

[vhyper007]

Well, What did they choose?
vhyper007

 

[MrBenchmark]

[ QUOTE ]
PeteBroccolo said:
I would STRONGLY recommend to the LAPD that they purchase and issue to each of their members:
- 1 collapsible steel defensive baton;
- 1 medium sized rechargeable main duty light;
- 1 compact sized 123A disposable lithium powered always-on-the-belt back-up light
which are already commercially available, along with suitable holsters or carrying rings for each of the above tools, and ensure that their members are properly trained in the use of them.



[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Pete, that's what I was trying to get at, I have zero law enforcement experience, so I couldn't say it as well as you did. It just seems like common sense to me that the way to avoid problems is to give our officers the best tools and training for the job they need to do. I'm sure there'll always be situations where officers have to use improvised weaponry in the line of duty - darkness and surprise are a very dangerous mixture. Still, it would seem to me that good management would see that preparedness for these situations would help keep everyone safer, rather than focusing on the misuse of a common tool. I realize, of course, that in the political environment in which many cities and police departments operate, that practical and common sense measures to solve the problem may actually be the LEAST important consideration... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I am curious now about what they've chosen. Since I've been in CPF, I've noticed that most of the local law enforcement officers I've seen seem to carry big Mag Lights. Given all the other stuff they carry, this looks awkward to me, but again, what do I know?

 

[JasonC8301]

What did the LAPD choose?

Rodney King..I am not going to get deep into this but everyone saw the bad part of that incident where cops were defending themselves against a high mofo. A cop can get hit and beat but when he defends himself against it, he/she is at fault.

There are bad apples on both sides of the good and evil. We do not live in a perfect world. It just comes down to the guy next to you, live with him, train with him, and fight with him, but when it comes to it I will give my life to save his when under fire. Its apart of war.

But whatever, did the LAPD choose the Tigerlight?

 

[dano]

My initial info was skewed. LAPD has postpones any custom light design, as there are not funds for 10,000 units to be made.

LAPD has eliminated metal bodied lights, i.e. Streamlight SL-20's, mags, etc.

-dan

 

[TRC]

[ QUOTE ]
Samuel said:
[ QUOTE ]
enLIGHTenment said:
Yeah. It was a real tragedy when the LAPD got into so much hot water when its officers protected themselves from Rodney King....
Cops aren't always the good guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Yes, there are bad apples EVERYWHERE.

2. Your attitude SUCKS!

Do us American LEOs a favor, keep your butt on that side of the border... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

99.999% of the time (made up statistic), if a subject just follows an LEO's instructions/orders, there is NO ISSUE!

In idiot Rodney's case, if he had simply pulled over...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nailed that one right on the head.

Rodney King went on to several other... er... problems with the local LEO's: at least one DWI, thaT required some force to subdue him, IIRC, and something else that made the news I can't recall.

Yes, Rodney King is a real saint all right....

 

[js]

Thought this might be relevant:

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/press-releases/90093/

 

[Samuel]

Unless they make one out of plastic/polymer, I think the "no metal-bodied requirement" rules the Tigerlight out (boy, a lot of hype on their website!).

Was there a light that was designed to allow the dispensing of chemical agent through a hole in the reflector/lens? I can't remember...

 

[3rd_shift]

Oh, man.
So a private citizen in Dallas can carry a 3D maglite to work as a guard like I do, and an LA Police officer can't? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wow.gif
This kinda makes me want to stay away from LA until thier police chief gets things straightened out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Maybe I should design a new flashlight for LA's police chief with a nerf football as the host. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif
And I will too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
I need his office address 1st though.
Could someone pm it to me please?
I'll post some pics and beamshots of this in bst mods forum before I send it over to him. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I just checked my old toy box and I DO have a host available
that is in good shape. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I just need to paint it black now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Wish me luck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

At the very least, this will give "pass me a light" new meaning. LOL!

 

[Samuel]

LMAO!

Can you imagine a Gladius (on strobe) with a GG&G TID mounted in the front of a lead-weighted Nerf football being thrown by an ex-high school or college quarterback turned LEO?

Talk about deer in the headlights - WHAMMO! hahaha

 

[KevinL]

[ QUOTE ]
3rd_shift said:
Maybe I should design a new flashlight for LA's police chief with a nerf football as the host. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif
And I will too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
I need his office address 1st though.
Could someone pm it to me please?
I'll post some pics and beamshots of this in bst mods forum before I send it over to him. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I just checked my old toy box and I DO have a host available
that is in good shape. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I just need to paint it black now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Wish me luck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

At the very least, this will give "pass me a light" new meaning. LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously want to see pics, construction details and beamshots of this contraption if you make one, regardless of whether it ever reaches its intended recipient. Just for sheer entertainment value in and as of itself. I'm not qualified to talk about the political issues, so I won't go there. I'm just a flashaholic /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You would also win the Most Unique Flashlight award for 2005 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[js]

[ QUOTE ]
Samuel said:
Unless they make one out of plastic/polymer, I think the "no metal-bodied requirement" rules the Tigerlight out (boy, a lot of hype on their website!).

Was there a light that was designed to allow the dispensing of chemical agent through a hole in the reflector/lens? I can't remember...

[/ QUOTE ]

Samuel,

I didn't say that the TL would fill all of their insane flashlight requirements, but only that this article by Mr. Teig was relevant to the discussion taking place.

And if he is right, if police officers had a non-lethal force option at hand, at the ready, built into their flashlight, there would be no risk of a flashlight being used as a stand-in for a lead pipe. And thus no need to restrict officers to nerf-football type lights.

BUT, I myself am making no argument, not having any competence or experience in these matters. I only thought that the article I linked was relevant to this thread.

 

[3rd_shift]

Ok, I found a suitable light to install in this thing at last!
It's an old Campfire brand 3led light with a twisty bezel one can get at while it's inside the "host".
Plus battery changes can be done while it's in there too.
I have also decided to include 3 old rechargeable alkaline batteries AAA's
to make this a suitable replacement for the all metal magcharger. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
edit:
Well, it won't quite replace a magcharger setup this way.
Plus, the charger is not included /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

One more edit;
I think I'll make this my last post in this thread for a while and post further progress on this project in the homemade flashlight forum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Samuel]

Hey 3S, how about modding the LEDs to produce a few different colors (e.g. RGB) AND strobe them. That way, when the BG is watching it in flight, we can apply the power of suggestion (aka hypnotism)... Also, are you contemplating using the original design (basica football shape) or are you going to go with the new and improved design (with the spiral enhancing tail fins)?

 

[Samuel]

js, your post/link IS relevant. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't!

Earlier in the thread, DimBeam posted a good article on LEOs using flashlights as secondary impact weapons (primary function being illumination).

I don't carry a Tigerlight (although I could if I wanted to) and don't buy into all the hype that Tigerlight is putting out. I think they have an interesting concept but the execution doesn't do it for me. Pepper spray and other chemical agents (non-lethal ones anyway) are not nearly as effective as some people believe (or some would want others to believe).

 

[js]

Samuel,

We could say the same thing about bright flashlight beams and self-defense. e.g. SureFire talks of using the very bright beams from some of their lights as an offensive weapon, yet most people say, and a few people know for sure, that a bright beam all by itself is not much of a defensive or offensive weapon. I recall one thread about dogs and how they are not scared off by bright lights . . . but whatever. The point is that the pepper spray is not meant to be an isolated, stand-alone capability. The idea is force escalation. You have the light in your hand and it allows you to see, while putting the suspect at a disadvantage, and then at the same time you have a hidden offensive capability that you can move to in the event that the person takes any offensive action. Will it instantly incapacitate him on contact? Of course not. Is it a useful thing to have in hand, built right into your light that you need anyway? Well, I would imagine so, but I'm not a LEO. So, continuing on, if the person shrugs off the pepper spray, well then you haven't lost anything versus a scenario without the pepper spray, and you could go to your gun or some concussion weapon, or whatever. I don't know, but I imagine that an LEO would confirm what I am saying.

As for the "hype" on the TL website, I don't know why it is such an issue. There's a lot of hype on the SureFire website too. Most manufacturers think highly of their products. There's nothing wrong with that. The issue is not whether there is or is not hype, but rather whether there is anything substantive to the hype. And in the case of the OC TL, it would seem to me that it is obvious that there is something real to hype. I have sold my TL mods to more than a couple LEO's, and they liked their TL's even before I made them brighter. I'm sure there were reasons why, and I'll bet that at least a few LEO appreciate the OC capability.

But again, I have no personal experience in this area and don't own a TL OC, but only TL FBOP's. I can speak as to why I think they are great lights but that's as far as it goes for me. Still, I'm pretty sure that you can't dismiss the OC TL by saying that it's all a bunch of hype.

 

[Blades]

What about the new Inova T4??




Blades

 

[Samuel]

JS,

First, let me say that my non-positive comments on the Tigerlight and website are in NO WAY meant as a negative reflection on the effectiveness of the Tigerlight as an ILLUMINATION device and/or Especially on your excellent body of work with the Tigerlight! Please don't take my opinions that way.

PERSONALLY, as a force option, the Tigerlight OC just doesn't "work for me". YMMV!!!

Like you, I also would not count on bright light stopping a BG. And, what you said about not using OC as a stand alone is also prudent - you should always have a back up plan.

Again, I find the combination of light/OC idea interesting, but, all things being equal, I would prefer the design to be along these lines:

1. Chemical agent is dispensed along the same axis/parallel to light beam - I would rather be able to spray while maintaining illumination on the target (not needing to readjust/reorient)
2. Switch(es) located near the head of the light (ala maglite or ultrastinger) - holding a blunt large flashlight sized cylindrical object in the middle or in an ice pick grip (with the majority of the body emerging from the pinky side of your closed hand) greatly reduces its effectiveness as an impact weapon (you don't hold a baseball bat or tennis racquet in the middle...).

Wrto "hype", I'm not a fan of anything that is "overhyped". On the Tigerlight website, this is what "jumped" out at me:
<<<<Could your flashlight cause two 6 ft. 300 pound men in full attack mode to
drop to the ground like two 300 lb. sacks of potatoes, curl up in the fetal
position and scream for mercy?
The TigerLight® Non-Lethal Defense System Did.
Could your flashlight incapacitate a driver during a stop in the split second he
was pulling up his gun to blow your head off?
The TigerLight® Non-Lethal Defense System Did.>>>>
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

IMsmeO, the Tigerlight OC can be a useful tool for someone proficient in its use, but it's definitely Not the end all be all of LE tools.

 

[js]

Samuel,

Thanks for your comments!

Regarding OC, I hear you. All of my TL's are FBOP non-pepper spray models. It's not my force option of choice. But then again, I'm not a LEO.

As for the hype, yeah, point taken. I'm not a fan of hype either, but it shouldn't turn you off to a decent product or idea. And I think the TL OC is a pretty good idea.

As for your suggestions, they are discussed on the website. The OC not being in the same axis prevents accidentally spraying someone, which apparently is/was far too common. And the rear switch permits an overhand grip that allows the thumb to activate the OC. I played with a TL OC at one point and it really is a pretty quick and smooth system.

Even so, I can understand why a person might still want the OC spraying out along the same axis, and with a switch near the head. All designs involve decisions and trade offs which ultimately come down to personal philosphy or preference. Everyone's mileage will, in general, vary.

Anyway, thanks again for your comments.

 

[Samuel]

[ QUOTE ]
js said:
As for your suggestions, they are discussed on the website. The OC not being in the same axis prevents accidentally spraying someone, which apparently is/was far too common. And the rear switch permits an overhand grip that allows the thumb to activate the OC. I played with a TL OC at one point and it really is a pretty quick and smooth system.


[/ QUOTE ]

And that statement there pretty much underscores a LE truism - it is imperative that you be smooth, efficient, and effective in deploying and using All of your tools. Casually "playing" with them as well as seriously training with them under stress will definitely help you identify the advantages and/or limitations of and develop familiarity and proficiency with your tools. Good point JS.

One other concern for the LAPD is that, if they go with something too far out of the ordinary, they may have to provide "official training" in order for the troops to be able to carry and use the item out in the field (a measure of CYA - reduction of department liability). For a department that size, it can be a logistical nightmare (writing policy, training personnel in policy and usage, actually outfitting all personnel, etc).

 

[dougmccoy]

In all this discussion the one thing that stikes me is that the honest, non violent LEO may be left with a device (flashlight) that will not perform well enough for him to do his job safely and properly.

I'm not an LEO (but have two brothers in the UK who are) but I am a pararmedic and have worked night shifts for years until recently. My experience of most commercial flashlight products leaves me cold. For most folks what is issued is the ubiquitous Maglite. In my role it is large, heavy and awkward to hold. It underperforms, quickly dims and needs feeding bulbs and batteries frequently. I learnt early on in my career that if I was to do my job well I'd have to supply my own flashlights. I've since gone through numerous models, some very expensive, some not. Unfortunately the one thing that I'm acutely aware of is that I've got to buy, feed and maintain this item at my expense. From a large number of posts on this forum I see many LEO's do likewise (if only to have the right tool to do their job).
Obviously (IME) the pre-requsite for any light is to be cost effective,( purchase price, batteries, bulb parts etc) powerful, reliable and long lasting and easily carryable.

Whilst I dont know yet what the preferred option for the LAPD will be, I cannot believe that they will miraculously find a light that matches all of the above criteria when the majority of manufactures haven't managed to?

Lets hope that whatever is decided on at least provides some
decent light which these guys can carry out their job with?

Doug