Runaway Car

[yuandrew]

Oh No! I Can't Stop !

I received an email (actually a comment on a Youtube video of me working on my dad's car) which said:

"BEWARE OF RUNNAWAY TOYOTA'S FROM 2001 TO 2009 THERE BEEN accidents caused by some kind of glitch in the electronic computer system used in Toyotas that controls the throttle ,WHICH CAUSE THE CAR TO accelerate ,and the breaks (brakes) to get stuck.If this happens you do not turn off the engine just put the car in Neutral,and press very hard on the break peddle this should stop the car safely."

At first, I discredited the comment (partially due to the spelling and grammar mistakes) but mostly on that fact that the recent Toyota recall on an issue regarding runaway vehicles was supposedly due to an incorrectly placed floor mat causing the accelerator pedal to jam. However, after reading the comment again and thinking to myself "How the heck could a computer problem or failure cause a vehicle to accelerate uncontrollably", I realized that vehicles built in the last couple years have "drive by wire" type controls for the throttle. A quick Google search on the issue also turned up some sites which were reporting that the accident which resulted in the Toyota recall may have been caused by a fault in the "throttle by wire" system rather than the "floor mat resting on the accelerator pedal"

While the Camry I was working on in my Youtube video has a mechanical (cable) linkage between the accelerator and the throttle body, I know our 2007 Highlander has a "drive by wire" throttle.

I'm still looking around and waiting for more in-depth reports to the actual issue.

Any comments ?

 

[SFG2Lman]

isn't this taught at driver's training anymore? put car in neutral and brake normally in th event of stuck accelerator? This is why i only drive stick...I don't want the car to be able to take control away from me, and if it tries, I push in clutch and get my truck back.

 

[UnderTheWeepingMoon]

My mum has a Honda Accord Euro (I think it's called an Acura TSX on the US market) which has drive-by-wire throttle. I've noticed that during low-speed driving with light throttle, the car sometimes develops a slight shudder which isn't present if the car is driven hard. Because my mum's a bit gentler on her car than I am, it happens more often when she drives.

I think the shuddering's due to a glitch in the drive-by-wire software which, according to the Honda blurb, tries to adapt throttle response to the driving style to give better economy or responsiveness when needed. I think the engineer's have overcomplicated things and the car would be better served with a simple cable.

 

[DaFABRICATA]

My first car, a '86 Pontiac 6000 broke an engine mount and pinched the throttle cable against the firewall while raging through an empty parking lot at Mt. Brighton causing it to stay floored after I took my foot off the pedal....oo::duh2::duck:
Scared the $h!t outta me, but luckily I thought quickly and turned the key off and pressed on the break with both feet.:sweat: I had only had my license a short time.

The Drive-by-wire crap still seems creepy to me.
I have that on the Pontiac Soltice GXP engine that is going into my '78 Chevette...it came with the gas pedal!:laughing:

 

[LuxLuthor]

Well it is a real issue. Toyota's first response is that the floor mats are getting stuck with pedals, but that appears to be a smokescreen response. Here is Bob's video.

 

[DM51]

My Toyota (an automatic) has a push-button start instead of a key. The key never has to leave my pocket - the door unlocks as soon as I touch the handle, as long as the key is within ~3 feet of the car. The car starts when I push the start-button, as long as the key is somewhere inside the car.

What worries me is - how do I stop the car if something goes wrong? There's no key to turn off or take out. I don't know what would happen if I pushed the "start" button. I'd probably just get an annoying message to fasten my seatbelt. Do you think the car would stop if I threw the key out the window?

 

[lightplay22]

It is a scary thought of a car having a mind of its own developing a glitch and not obeying any commands from the driver. Reminds me of a horse I tried to ride when I was a child that turned out to be a very rough (short) ride with a hard knock kind of dismount.

I love the smart key system and so far its worked flawlessly, but you never know.

I looked at my floor mats and don't see how they could really cause the problem they claim (although I would like to trade the dirty ones for some new ones) ha ha ha.


Had not thought about throwing the key out the window lol! I guess that is a good enough reason not to have my Aeon on the key ring!

I also wonder if the little shifter on the Prius would go into neutral in such an event as I know it has no mechanical linkage.

So far so good.

 

[turbodog]

My Toyota (an automatic) has a push-button start instead of a key. The key never has to leave my pocket - the door unlocks as soon as I touch the handle, as long as the key is within ~3 feet of the car. The car starts when I push the start-button, as long as the key is somewhere inside the car.

What worries me is - how do I stop the car if something goes wrong? There's no key to turn off or take out. I don't know what would happen if I pushed the "start" button. I'd probably just get an annoying message to fasten my seatbelt. Do you think the car would stop if I threw the key out the window?

I believe the solution here is like a locked up computer, push and hold the start button for several seconds to kill the engine.

 

[gswitter]

Reminds me of the electronically actuated hood latch on the Toureg (I think that was the model) that has no mechanical override. Owners eventually discovered that if the battery died, they couldn't open the hood to replace it.

 

[LukeA]

A quick Google search on the issue also turned up some sites which were reporting that the accident which resulted in the Toyota recall may have been caused by a fault in the "throttle by wire" system rather than the "floor mat resting on the accelerator pedal"

If the problem was caused by an electronic throttle, then why would the floormats be replaced for the solution?

 

[John_Galt]

Another reason I don't like newer cars... If they glitch, they glitch bad.

And another reason I will only ever drive manuals... At least you have a clutch to disengage, and the ability to shut down the car.


DM51... That is a problem...:duh2: Maybe you could wire in a physical disconnect for the negative terminal for the battery? Something goes wrong, and you could physically disconnect it, and with out a ground to complete the circuit, everything would shut off?

 

[Vinniec5]

LukeA there are 2 parts to the throttle by wire system, One on the throttle body itself and the other behind the accelerator pedal. I am only educated guessing but possibly the mats are stopping/slowing the pedal sensor from returning when they let up on the pedal. Its only a spring that returns the pedal to its closed position. Vettes since the C5 came out have had it with no mat problems but the sensor part and mount are high up on the firewall keeping the mats out of its way. I've seen customers cars with mats piled up when you hit the brake pedal it pushes the gas down too, We had a salesman once crash through a fence and drive backwards up a 3 foot block wall with a Grand cherokee with mats like that. He was lucky and only got banged up a little but it was close. the Jeep was totaled

 

[Illum]

isn't this taught at driver's training anymore? put car in neutral and brake normally in th event of stuck accelerator? This is why i only drive stick...I don't want the car to be able to take control away from me, and if it tries, I push in clutch and get my truck back.

while it may be covered on tests, I'm increasingly seeing people not touching the stick except for reverse and park. I drive an automatic, but I always shift it into Neutral at red lights and if I'm carrying something, I tend to use D3 or 2 to accelerate before going into D...I'm not sure where the habit comes from, but I've never driven a manual. :nana:

The throttle control theory maybe credible but its independent of the transmission and the brakes. You as a driver can bypass the engine power by going into Neutral and if the brake pedal doesn't work I suppose the last resort might be the parking brake :duck:

As for runaways the only issue I had was a failed hand brake on an incline, where the only damage was a rear bumper from the car rolling out of the garage, down the driveway and ran smack into the mower shed.

Another reason I don't like newer cars... If they glitch, they glitch bad.

The only thing thats really wrong with newer cars is the conversion from all mechanical to all electric without leaving the redundant mechanical components in place. Push button start? great! wheres the backup keyhole? remote unlock? great! what happens when my batteries die? Power windows? great! wheres the emergency hand crank? GPS? great! wheres the map holder?

Modern cars is becoming like state of the art airplanes with LCD monitors as windows. I don't care how state of the art it is, I'm not going to operate it unless you can give me a straight answer that it will perform its job if I lose power.

 

[StarHalo]

You should at least once on an empty backroad attempt driving your vehicle with no engine - you'll find that without power assist, your steering and brake pedal will become remarkably heavy, but you should still be able to shift an automatic to neutral as needed.

 

[ryball]

It's a conspiracy and the pre-cursor to the machine take-over. Skynet, people... Skynet.

 

[jtr1962]

The only thing thats really wrong with newer cars is the conversion from all mechanical to all electric without leaving the redundant mechanical components in place. Push button start? great! wheres the backup keyhole? remote unlock? great! what happens when my batteries die? Power windows? great! wheres the emergency hand crank? GPS? great! wheres the map holder?

Modern cars is becoming like state of the art airplanes with LCD monitors as windows. I don't care how state of the art it is, I'm not going to operate it unless you can give me a straight answer that it will perform its job if I lose power.

The thing you're overlooking here is that there hasn't been a simple mechanical linkage between the accelerator and engine for a long time. Even if you had a physical cable between the accelerator and throttle, think about what's really happening. Engines haven't had carburetors for quite some time. It's fuel injection and the associated computers which control fuel quantity, ignition timing, etc. In short, the throttle control on the engine has long been just another sensor interfaced to the rest of the engine via electronics, even if it might have been connected to the accelerator via a cable! All drive-by-wire did was move the "throttle position sensor" from somewhere under the hood to the accelerator pedal. There's no going back to a purely mechanical system, even more so in these days where we're heading towards purely electric systems (either hybid or pure EV).

That being said, it would be sensible to have some sort of fail-safe just in case something goes wrong, perhaps a solenoid on the fuel line which requires power to keep fuel flowing (or a circuit breaker on EVs). In the event power fails (or the driver hits a panic button to deenergize the solenoid), then the engine will shut down.

I should also add that the brake will always overpower a runaway engine. Car&Driver did tests on this in the 1980s. If the accelerator pedal gets stuck, just stand on the brake. The car will stop, and in not much more distance than it would without the engine running (I was actually surprised by this).

 

[Illum]

I should also add that the brake will always overpower a runaway engine. Car&Driver did tests on this in the 1980s. If the accelerator pedal gets stuck, just stand on the brake. The car will stop, and in not much more distance than it would without the engine running (I was actually surprised by this).

With disk brakes yes, with drum brakes you'll have alot of smoke before the shoe is completely burned off and it may become a matter of steel on steel.

 

[Mjolnir]

This is yet another advantage of having a manual. Even though my car has drive by wire and push button start, there is no chance of it "accelerating out of control," since I can just push the clutch.

From the ABC article:

"Safety analysts found an estimated 2000 cases in which owners of Toyota cars including Camry, Prius and Lexus, reported that their cars surged without warning up to speeds of 100 miles per hour."

They mention the prius, which (as everyone knows) is a hybrid. I have never been inside a prius, but I would assume that you don't have much (if any) control over shifting since there is an electric and a conventional motor that has to be managed by computer. Can they even be shifted into neutral?
Also, I wasn't aware that priuses could even go 100 MPH...

 

[LuxLuthor]

My Toyota (an automatic) has a push-button start instead of a key. The key never has to leave my pocket - the door unlocks as soon as I touch the handle, as long as the key is within ~3 feet of the car. The car starts when I push the start-button, as long as the key is somewhere inside the car.

What worries me is - how do I stop the car if something goes wrong? There's no key to turn off or take out. I don't know what would happen if I pushed the "start" button. I'd probably just get an annoying message to fasten my seatbelt. Do you think the car would stop if I threw the key out the window?

LOL! I can imagine seeing a panicked driver jerking out their key, disabling the ability to open electric windows, smashing it with their elbow, tossing out the key, and now realizing they have a locked steering wheel, in a runaway car barreling down the highway, with its anti-theft alarm system blaring away!!!

Where can I buy one of those cars?

On a separate note, why the hell do you have to add a letter "k" when using adjective form of panic?

 

[LuxLuthor]

Also, I wasn't aware that priuses could even go 100 MPH...

That is if you slide back the floor and use the Fred Flintstone manual foot-powered feature, and going down a steep hill. It is a $1200 add-on tree-hugger option.