Searching For a Light (High CRI, Thrower)

[deklan]

I just tried out my M61 modules and in my highly unscientific opinion, the best thrower of the bunch was the M61W, followed by the M61HCRI and then the M61 219. But in terms of having a beautiful tint, the 219 wins hands down

 

[chanjyj]

I just tried out my M61 modules and in my highly unscientific opinion, the best thrower of the bunch was the M61W, followed by the M61HCRI and then the M61 219. But in terms of having a beautiful tint, the 219 wins hands down

Deklan, how much was the difference between the M61HRCI and the M61 219? Marginal? Thanks for the test.

 

[think2x]

The Malkoff 219 is way floodier than it should be, I have an HDS120 modded with a 219 and it out throws the m61 219
Half most half the lumens and it's throwing like the hds120

The HDS and the 219 make a GREAT Pair don't they? :thumbsup:

 

[deklan]

Deklan, how much was the difference between the M61HRCI and the M61 219? Marginal? Thanks for the test.

I was trying this out late last night facing some greenery which was about 50m away. I think the W was about 3-4% better in throw vs the hcri. The hcri was about 5-8% better than the 219. Again, just my 2 cents without any proper measuring equipment. Hope this helps

 

[HighlanderNorth]

I always thought the Oveready/Torchlab triples were a "wall of flood", albeit a super bright one. Just checked the site, see that they've added the 219 as an option.. hmm.

However I also know for a fact that it doesn't fit in the Elzetta - that means I've got to hunt for a new host. This thread is reminding me of my "flashlight hunting" days when I was new to CPF.



I used to carry a SureFire M2 w/ P91 and 2 IMR 16340s. The runtime was miserably short, and I stopped (except for occasions when I feel like carrying it). You're right on the throw though. And ican has.. something special. It's just not practical for me.



But it isn't high CRI. There are plenty of tough torches around, but none that fulfill both the HRCI and thrower criteria and remain tough (maybe the ArmyTek Predator, as one member has mentioned).

Yeah, but in the OP, you said you were willing to "budge" on the high CRI spec.

 

[HighlanderNorth]

Others are noticing the same dilemma.
It's an emitter situation.

Basically, the "Hi CRI" interest began after the larger emitters appeared. The smaller emitters such as the XRE were already fading out of use at that time, and the larger emitters such as the XPG and even the XML were into the mainstream. So, the Hi CRI treatments got applied to those, and their contemporaries.
The only problem is that these newer emitters are too big to throw well in a P60 size reflector.
The M61 isn't much of a thrower, and neither is anything else that's modern in a P60. I noticed this immediately several years ago when the XPG appeared, and all the lights lost their throw. We had great throwing P60 size lights that all of a sudden had wimpy throw, because they were changed from XRE emitters over to XPG emitters.

Nobody went back to apply the Hi CRI treatments to the older emitters with good throw like the XRE. Probably because it kills alot of the output power, and they were older lower efficiency emitters.
Sure, people can get good throw from an XPG, but not in a P60 size package. They need to make a larger head size to do it.
And the XML is even worse, but it makes it up with brute power and high battery drain.
This is the dilemma.
Probably the best hope at present would be to hope for a Hi CRI XPG-2 with 400 lumens, and just hope that the extra brute power will give you the throw you want. The XPG-2 is already out, and maybe they'll offer a Hi CRI version soon.

For me personally, I have not attempted to get into the Hi CRI fad, because it was too limiting. The emitters lost much of their output with the Hi CRI treatment, and I didn't think that the Hi CRI makes much real difference to me anyway. I can tell what the colors are with a regular emitter. And I use a M60 for throw in my Elzetta, and it throws an honest 135 meters. And the tint is pretty natural looking too. I use the emitter that can throw in that package size, and forget about the "need" for Hi CRI. I lived for my whole life without Hi CRI, and I don't need it now. What I need is a light that is sized like I want, to throw like I want. And that means it needs an XRE.

The XP-G cant even remotely be lumped together with the XM-L as far as size is concerned. Just look at the 2 side by side, there's no comparison. The XP-G is not a large LED. Its a fraction of the size of an XM-L. Its much closer to the size of an XP-E. Looking at the 2 LED's side by side, the XP-G is only about 25-30% larger, which isnt going to make that big a difference in throw within the same sized reflector, whereas the much larger XM-L will be much more floody. There are several smaller sized lights with XP-G's that throw well, so certainly a P60 sized light with an XP-G isnt going to be really floody.

But I totally agree about the CRI issue. The average drop in brightness between a neutral or cool LED vs. a high CRI LED can be significant, and I dont understand why anyone other than a professional photographer would be super picky about high CRI lights, when a nice neutral white beam is just fine, and doesnt destroy color rendering ability or anything. Maybe its OCD....

 

[chanjyj]

Yeah, but in the OP, you said you were willing to "budge" on the high CRI spec.

If all options are exhausted. And if they are, I have my own candidates in mind. Just trying to exhaust all options first.

 

[chanjyj]

But I totally agree about the CRI issue. The average drop in brightness between a neutral or cool LED vs. a high CRI LED can be significant, and I dont understand why anyone other than a professional photographer would be super picky about high CRI lights, when a nice neutral white beam is just fine, and doesnt destroy color rendering ability or anything. Maybe its OCD....

Maybe it is indeed OCD. I'm a professional photographer and it's probably gotten to my eyes (and brain) :laughing:

I remember the looking at my awful SR90 tint 2 years back and wondering why I bought it.. then staring at the output and trying to remind myself that this output was already encroaching on HID and "not to demand too much".

Surprisingly, when I made the switch from icans to LEDs I wasn't too troubled. Maybe my Fenix TK10 at that time had an exceptionally good tint I was spoiled by it. Soon after, there were brighter and better lights but 30% of the time I would go back to my TK10 (well, I guess it could also took my abuse).

 

[Max_Power]

Have you tried an M60W or M30W? I have a pair of M30W that are driven by 2 or 3 eneloops. The color rendering is pretty darn good, and the throw is certainly better than M61 series with XPG emitters when both are running in regulation. You would need to find someone willing to sell you an M60W, though - I don't think Gene makes them any more.

The M61 Nichia 219 is definitely the best LED for overall output and good color rendering.

 

[chanjyj]

I do have a M60N (the M60W was rebranded to M60N by Oveready a while ago). The rendition is ok, though as you said nothing beats the 219.

This, in an Elzetta host is the option I am probably going to use if I can't find a HCRI light w/ decent throw (and all my other criteria).

 

[twl]

The XP-G cant even remotely be lumped together with the XM-L as far as size is concerned. Just look at the 2 side by side, there's no comparison. The XP-G is not a large LED. Its a fraction of the size of an XM-L. Its much closer to the size of an XP-E. Looking at the 2 LED's side by side, the XP-G is only about 25-30% larger, which isnt going to make that big a difference in throw within the same sized reflector, whereas the much larger XM-L will be much more floody. There are several smaller sized lights with XP-G's that throw well, so certainly a P60 sized light with an XP-G isnt going to be really floody.

But I totally agree about the CRI issue. The average drop in brightness between a neutral or cool LED vs. a high CRI LED can be significant, and I dont understand why anyone other than a professional photographer would be super picky about high CRI lights, when a nice neutral white beam is just fine, and doesnt destroy color rendering ability or anything. Maybe its OCD....

I agree that the XML and the XPG are different sizes, and both larger than the XRE.
But if you had been around when the XRE was out, and saw what happened in the transition from XRE to XPG, you'd have a different idea about what "small light that throws well" really means.
If you read the commentary in the CPF archives when the XPG first came out, you'll notice that there is a LOT of talk about "no throw". This is because the manufacturers were putting the new XPG into their hosts which were designed for the XRE, and suddenly, the throw disappeared. In general, when an XPG gets put into a reflector size that threw well with the XRE, the throw gets cut in half.
Of course, with the larger XML, the situation is even worse. And this is why everything with smaller size heads are now floodlights, and the only real throwers have large heads with large reflectors.
Back 'in the day', when the XRE was new, even small lights had really good throw, and the P60 size lights could easily show over 5000 lux, and a Dereelight Javelin with the XRE P60 showed 8000 lux and was the "P60 throw king" .
The old XRE had less efficiency, and had somewhat lower lumen output than the XPG, but it kicked the tar out of the XPG for throw in small(P60 size) flashlights.
And still does. We've just gotten accustomed to the shorter throw from the XPG, and the manufacturers have moved to larger head/reflector sized to accommodate the XPG's requirements for the larger reflector to get throw.

So, I guess that was a long way around to saying in a P60 size reflector, or even in some larger ones, the XRE with the smaller die size will out-throw the larger emitters, even if the XRE produces less overall lumen output, but it will produce more lux in the beam center for more throw.
It's an emitter-relative issue as the emitters got larger.

Ironically, I'm actually a fan of the more floody lights. But I have watched the thrower market as it has gone along, and observed what was going on there. I do like a reasonable amount of throw with my floody beams, and my favorite lights are the Malkoff Wildcats. And they all have XPG in them except the earliest Quad-emitter V1 Wildcat(which has XRE), and I like the XPG in these lights just fine, and they all throw about 150 yards, which is what I prefer for throw distance. In my Elzetta, I use the M60 with the XRE and optic, because it will get out there to the 150-yard mark, but the M61 with the XPG will not. In that case, I accept the tighter beam from the XRE/optic in the M60 for the throw distance, over my normal preference for the floodier result that I'd get from the M61, because the M61 won't throw far enough for me.

 

[chanjyj]

It seems that that the thread maybe veering off course. I'm not looking for a dedicated thrower ala Maelstrom G5, but rather something that is not pure flood (or close to it).

I need decent spill, and decent throw. I'm not hunting for the next P60 Maxabeam

 

[HotWire]

Elzetta with a Malkoff drop-in is not going to break. You could carry a back-up LED just in case. Extra batteries are a must.

 

[chanjyj]

Elzetta with a Malkoff drop-in is not going to break. You could carry a back-up LED just in case. Extra batteries are a must.

I never said it was.. :shrug: What do you mean?

 

[twl]

I really think that you have a pretty fair chance of seeing a Hi CRI XPG-2 coming up in the foreseeable future.
The XPG-2 has 450 lumens when driven normally, and is otherwise the same size as the regular XPG.
Since Hi CRI is on the radar screen with these manufacturers now, and there has already been a Hi CRI XPG, I would speculate that a Hi CRI XPG-2 might not be too far off in the future.
Maybe it might cut the output to 375 lumens, but it will still throw better than a normal XPG, and would have some level of Hi CRI.
What I don't know, is how good the Hi CRI will be, or what the color temp might be. It might be 85 CRI, or it might be 95 CRI. And it might be 3700k warm, or 5000k neutral.
So, whether you actually like it, when it might hit the market, is another question.

But, I think that's probably your best hope.
And Malkoff would make a module with that. He's already got the cool-white XPG-2 emitters out in the modules and in the Wildcat. And he's offered different color temps and Hi CRI in the past, so I think he's your best shot.

 

[Ti²C]

humm... we forgot a good candidate : how about the lenslight ?

they are out of stock but there is a 2*123 fs on the marketplace right now.....

 

[psychbeat]

I've been EDCing an L2M with a shorty zero rez twisty running 18500 with
a Nailbender Nichia 219 92cri in a smooth reflector.

On high (1.4a) it throws surprisingly well.
Much brighter and lots more throw than my M61-219 module.

There are a couple of rings from the reflector in the beam but I use my lights outside mostly so it's not noticeable.

 

[psychbeat]

Here it is with my EDC stuff

 

[Mikeg23]

The other option I would try would be to use Ledil LXP2 or LXP3 RS optics.

How would this work? Is this something that would be paired with a M61 HCRI or did you mean something entirely different?

 

[chanjyj]

I've been EDCing an L2M with a shorty zero rez twisty running 18500 with
a Nailbender Nichia 219 92cri in a smooth reflector.

On high (1.4a) it throws surprisingly well.
Much brighter and lots more throw than my M61-219 module.

There are a couple of rings from the reflector in the beam but I use my lights outside mostly so it's not noticeable.

I've already ordered a L2P. Maybe I'll get one Nailbender 219 just to give it a shot.