SureFire A2 Aviator now on SureFire Website

[tsg68]

Don,
What I am saying is maybe the initial price of the A2 was derived directly from the fact that it was the first presentation in the marketplace. I don't believe for a second that the opportunity for profit by a company with their reputations was not going to be exploited (look at their marketing campaign it's almost as bad as Blackhawk Industries). What I AM saying and I'm sure that this is what others are interested in too is that now that competition (even lesser quality competition) is entering the marketplace, at an extreme reduction of cost to the consumer, maybe it is time the product settled in at a more digestible price to the average consumer (hey it happened with the 6P, 6Z and G2) We are not saying we want the A2 for $30 bucks but $100-130 or so would be nice. In the mean time we'll feel free to "Explore our options". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I wouldn't be surprised if SF even built a price reduction into the marketing plan for the product, knowing that competition would follow, so I don't think it hurts to push for it.

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[FalconFX]

My problem with the A2 isn't the A2. It's trying to justify whether the differences from the A2 to the TT2L merits a price difference of $130... And on that account, the A2 is overpriced. If you had to choose one of the two lights, obviously, you would choose the A2 over the TT2L because of regulation. But there should be a point where reasonability tells you paying so much more doesn't merit the technology. And for that, the cost of the technology becomes a novelty rather than a justified addition. In essense, you're not paying just for a better light anymore. You're paying for a luxury...

I'm glad SureFire put up their A2 on their site and added the backordered status. It makes no sense for the distributors to have the product out, but the site doesn't provide any info. Information is dfferent from sales, and at least SF should put up the datasheets of their new lights, even if it is backordered...

 

[McGizmo]

TSG,

I understand and agree with you. It is a free enterprise and SF will have to adjust their prices accordingly to be successful in the markets they chose to participate in. It is a two way street where neither consumer nor manufacturer has an obligation to do business with eachother. I have no idea what SF's profit structure looks like nor do I have a sense of what kind of volume the A2 could see at various price levels. I DO know that there is a bunch of $ tied into tooling and molds required to make the A2 and that for SF to be successful with the A2, they will need to recoup the tooling expense involved. If there is a small niche market that will consume the A2, then the price will need to be high to recapture these costs. There is no way the A2 can compete with the twin task light. We agree. If the demand for the A2 is elastic to the extent that a significant reduction in price will increase the number sold by a more significant number then it would be wise for SF to visit this proposition. At the present, if they can't meet demand at the current price level, as Al stated, it would be foolish to drop the price now. That IS part of the free market equation; benefit goes to manufacturer in this case.

I felt your posts were well reasoned and you placed personal value in both of the lights. Made sense to me. I too would rather pay less for a light than more. If SF sees fit to reduce the price on the A2 it won't hurt my feelings even though I bought it when it was higher. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif However, if SF doesn't drop the price, I can't fault them for this and I see no merit in ragging on them about it (not implying that you are either).

Poor Al has SF running in his blood and is quick to their defense. I think he has picked a winner to back and SF is lucky to have him waving their banner. I can't believe that this comes as any surprise to anyone who has become familiar with CPF and has been stated elsewhere, moderators are entitled to their opinions as well as stating them. Sheesh, if he weren't tied to the chain of being a moderator think how much quicker he might pounce! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

- Don

 

[Size15's]

I meant buying cheap because it's cheap (or not buying something because it's expensive.)
To look at something purely on it's price rather than the value. Value to you, value to the future of the industry, value to CPF. There are many ways to judge value.

I guess that I don't expect nor demand that a Rolls Royce costs the same as a Renault.
What I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between a cheap import and a SureFire that is more than just the price.

Taking the cheaper option because it is the cheaper option - cutting corners, taking advantages, not thinking long term.
That's the trait.

CPF Members not taking the cheaper option appears to be a major reason why Peter has been able to continue developing Arc's products.

I thought that CPF Members would be able to see the A2 as more then just it's retail price.

Maybe it's time?
The A2 is months old! It's taken years for companies to offer 123A models at the basic 6P level.

Competition to the A2 from the Streamlight imports?!
There have been people copying the SureFire patented two light sources in one reflector concept for years. The A2 is so much more then that (this is why it costs more!)

Average Consumer?
Hey it wouldn't it be nice if Rolls Royce settled in at a more digestible price to the average consumer. SureFire don't sell to the average consumer. You don't see SureFires in the likes of Walmart.

I see the A2 as the ability to invest in the most advanced illumination tool ever - one which you can carry on you and use every day. I thought that sort of thing appeals to CPF Members?

Al

 

[stangster]

Al, I don't mean any malice by what I said. It's not personal. I don't know you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't understand why someone who chooses a cheaper product (not just cheaper price) means they have horrible human traits.

I have no bias here. I asked in another thread about the A2 not being at their site because I wanted to know more about it.

And Doc.. yap yap yap. I'm surprised you haven't whipped out an "IMHO" yet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[tsg68]

Don, you're right about Al and I again say I meant no disrespect to him but wanted to point out appearance wise his post was a little on the hot side.

I own several SF lights and it is only fair to point out that consumers always will want high quality for less money and in SF's case the price subject has always been a real turnoff to many who would by these lights in a heartbeat were they about 15-25% less expensive all of the SF's I own were purchased for substantially less than their average retail price M3 $160, C2-HA $63 both G2's $26 a piece. I really don't think the dealers could have offered them for these prices without some flexibility, and actually I owe these bargains to my own patience and research. So once again I will challenge them, cause this is what consumer advocacy is about. I believe in the consumer driving the market not the other way around and I won't let someones criticism of it shut me down in seeking it. Other wise things ends up like the CD industry where the R&D was recouped long ago and the price is still outrageous. I still won't buy CD's. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Size15's]

Perhaps I dislike that the lack of appreciation of quality and the desire to improving things by a large number of people can impact those who do appreciate those things.
I see it as selfish and greedy to think short-term gain over long-term investment - that's the horrible human trait I speak of.

Buying cheaper carrots rather than the organic carrots grown on a local farm by a farmer who has been perfecting his crop for generations.
The more expensive carrots support the organic environmental sustainabiliy, the healthier, tastier carrots that keep the farmer and his family and the local community alive. The more expensive carrots that help fund the farmer's quest for better carrots.

I consider myself as having a scientific perspective and feel that if CPF orientates itself with a mass-market capitalist approach we will see companies like SureFire stop sharing their science with us.

Al

 

[Size15's]

Damn! SureFire already did that...

Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif

 

[stangster]

Ok, I just read your last post.

"Taking the cheaper option because it is the cheaper option - cutting corners, taking advantages, not thinking long term.
That's the trait."

What if you're poor? What if you can't afford the best of the best. Or even the mediocre? What if you live pay check to pay check and don't know anything else except getting the cheapest available?

It's not a bad trait. It's a necessity in those cases. Paying rent is more important that researching for and thinking long term about a flashlight, isn't it?

Speaking of which, I'm about to buy a SF E2Executive for $68 bucks brand new. Is this a good deal? I haven't seen one cheaper which is why I am juuuust about to click this shopping cart's button. Unless of course, anyone can get it cheaper...

 

[paulr]

I think my dad's 1967 Ford's headlights had each two light sources (high beam and low beam) in the same reflector and I'm sure the concept goes back even further than that. It didn't spring out of nowhere into the mind of Surefire /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Seriously, Surefire makes a top quality product, and there will always be a market for that. It's irrelevant that someone else's less expensive product is functionally the same. Going down a step, a 2D Maglight and a 2D plastic Everready light are pretty much the same thing but they don't exactly compete with each other. As a more extreme example, Rolex sells as many watches as it can make, even though a 39 dollar G-Shock will work just as well under even tougher conditions.

Also, Surefire has definitely been great at bringing products to market that nobody else had dared to (the 6P was absolutely audacious in its willingness to burn through a pair of ten dollar lithium batteries in just an hour, even though electrically and mechanically speaking it was just another flashlight). However, the level of sheer technical information on this CPF board alone exceeds anything coming out of Surefire or any other manufacturer. Someday someone will claim that the Surefire KLx was the first Luxeon flashlight, but dozens of them were made here on CPF long before the KLx saw the light of day.

 

[McGizmo]

TSG,

I think we see the same picture and I do agree with the reality of consumer driven markets. I don't always agree with where they are driven. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I understand the right and desire to put pressure on price reductions. Unfortunately the method is often employed of berating a product or comparing the product to something cheaper. People have feelings and the people we want to change things are often swayed more effectively when they don't feel they have been put on the defensive.

IE. You are selling your car for $10,000 and two prospects come up to you:

1) Hey that car has worn upholstery, an oil leak and the paint is fading. I can get a better deal if I go over to the next town. You are asking more than it's worth. I'll give you $7500 tops.

2)Hi, I really like your car and I can see that it has normal signs of wear but it looks like you have treated it well. I like the personal touches and upgrades you have added. Your price is likely fair but unfortunately it is just beyond what I can budget for a car. If you would consider taking $7500 for it I would be able to buy it. If not, I understand and I wish you luck. I'm sure I will be able to find something in my budget but perhaps not a car as nice as this.

Which prospect is more likely to get the car?

TSG,

This example wasn't for you and I suspect you know this. This example is for some others who have posted in previous threads.

- Don

 

[tkl]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif ....nice to be on this side for once...

 

[tsg68]

Funny Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

I still think we drive them to raise the bar through our expectations. You can't have one without the other, if you are of the scientific mind then you can appreciate the demand for lower cost Items is exactly what drove the development of the very machinery and technology that Surefire uses to produce these lights and the instruments that measure the tightest tolerances. You gotta keep progressing and the consumer must keep pushing progress to reach for that perfection along with economy. I don't know about you but I see that Military hardware like Surefires cost some taxpayer bread and while I want our troops and LEO's to have the best possible equipment money can buy, I don't want to bankrupt the Country at the same time. We went pretty quickly from Plastic Price lights to Surefire combat lights and soon we have to pay the bill so I think that the economy of these items is important too and worth parallel development!

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Size15's]

Everyday I have to live within my means. This would indicate my choices and options are limited by the amount of money I have to spend.
I don't complain about not being able to afford something.

Please try to understand that I don't like it when people who can make the choice because they can afford to decided to take the cheap option because it is the cheap option.
I believe that this applies when saving up for something too. The rewards for saving up that much longer for a product rather then buying a cheaper one right now are to me at least more than just having the product.

Al

 

[McGizmo]

Al,

You're cool and I think you have clarified your position well and with justification. Have some /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif I figure TKL will finish his any minute now and change sides. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif

Have A2; must walk dog....

Goodnight all!

 

[paulr]

I just can't imagine buying an A2 with the Streamlight available. An M6 maybe, but not an A2 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Buying an A2 for the way most people use a flashlight is like buying a humvee to pick up the groceries. It's just not the right vehicle even if you can afford it. If I buy an A2, all the labor and materials that went into making it are labor and materials that might instead have gone into making an M6 that could save a LEO's life. The Streamlight is a lot smaller and lighter and more cost effective and the only thing holding me back from it (besides its unavailability) is I'd rather have a polymer version that's even lighter. I'd rather leave the A2's and Humvees for the LE and military types who actually need them.

 

[Size15's]

TSG,
I've not been involved with SureFire for very long - only since 1998 so perhaps I've got this wrong. I don't at all get the impression that the driving force behind SureFire's technology and products is demand for lower cost items.
The driving force behind SureFire is Dr John Matthews and his desire to provide the very best illumination tools possible to those in the Special Operations Community.

SureFire have certainly branched out with their E Series and use flashlights such as the L1 (KL1 etc) and A2 to host technology what will be used in future products.

The A2 is in a single product the result of many concepts developed over time by SureFire. It is not an isolated product but part of SureFire's mission.

Al

 

[FalconFX]

Nobody's saying the A2 has "oil leaks" or "fading paint" (i.e: it's not built well or it's not technologically advanced). On the contrary, people know when it's SureFire, it's top notch.

Some people, myself included, just believe the A2 is not worth some $130 more than the TTL2. Just because I'm not willing to buy the A2 over the TTL2 or I believe cheaper lights that perform and are built to similar specs doesn't mean I don't support SureFire's product lines or have lower standards for myself.

I don't know what SureFire's overhead or R/D costs are for development of the A2, nor do I care to find out. I bought the E2 because the price justified the light. I'm willing to buy the A2 because I can afford it, not because it's price is right. Simple as that.

If SureFire rolled out their Beast line and charged $10,000 for one light, I'll guarantee you any CPFer looking to buy that light will do a double take. It's a price preference, weighted between what you put in and what you get for your money, and it has nothing to do with societal traits or "lack of appreciation of quality".

 

[paulr]

SureFire, just like any other company, makes more money by moving more product, and doesn't hesitate to use sophisticated marketing and low price points to sell more stuff. Look at the G2, for example--a ten dollar Surefire flashlight! (That is, a complete G2 with P60 lamp assembly costs just $10 more retail than the P60 all by itself).

Some Surefire products like the E2 or M6 seem perfectly evolved. Others like the 10X are more like works in progress. I have to put the A2 in the "work in progress" category. As you say, I'm sure its technology will find its way into future Surefire lights that put it to good use, but I see the A2 itself as more like a technology testbed than as a light that does something really necessary.

 

[Size15's]

FalconFX,

That's where we obviously have different opinions as I believe that willingness to spend (if you have the ability) should take more into account then the price you pay for the product because I believe that when you buy a product you support what makes that product possible and that by buying something else you are not supporting what makes that product possible.

I believe that SureFire's USA based Research & Development should be supported because Streamlight's approach to new product development is not healthy for the long-term advancement of illumination technologies.

Al