Terri Schiavo R.I.P

[Flashlightboy]

Re: Terri Schiavo

The official answer is no but 16% of physicians will up the morph to a fatal level if requested by the family. Check out Time for this week - it discusses this stuff plus the prescribed death drug in Oregon.

 

[Chris_Medico]

Re: Terri Schiavo

I'm not going to speak to the specifics of this situation and maybe this isn't the right question to ask but..

Why is everyone putting their noses into this families business (not this thread specifically)??

Shouldn't these people be allowed to handle their own affairs in the way they see fit as long as it fits within what is legal? What is moral is something they will have to reconcile with their family and their god. I certainly don't feel qualified to judge them.

As individuals we do not have to agree with the choices of our neighbors but the fact that they are allowed to choose is a good thing. ESPECIALLY if we don't like their choices...

Chris

 

[Greta]

Re: Terri Schiavo

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Why is everyone putting their noses into this families business ....

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... because the family dragged our noses into it... kicking and screaming all the way! The family went to the press... and the governor... and the courts... and Congress... etc etc. The husband didn't. I'd have just as soon had my nose left out of the whole mess... and my tax dollars too... thankyouverymuch... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif

 

[PhotonWrangler]

Re: Terri Schiavo

[ QUOTE ]
Malpaso said:
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Frangible said:
I thought it was due to excess fluid consumption that resulted in an imbalance in potassium/sodium levels that led to cardiac arrest and then brain damage from the oxygen deprivation?

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As I understand it, the bulimia was a contributing factor to the heart attack, maybe not the only factor, as you say.

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It's fairly common for bulimics to suffer from moderate to severe electrolyte imbalance, as a lot of the potassium comes up with the bile, or exits at the other end with self-induced diahhrea. A strong enough potassium deficiency can stop one's heart.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

Re: Terri Schiavo

[ QUOTE ]
UncleFester said:
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but since these people obviously decided to kill her, why couldn't they do in some humane manner instead of dehydrating/starving her to death. This is unbelievable. We treat our pets with more dignity and sympathy.

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I'm with you on this one. For that matter, we treat prisoners on death row with more dignity. They would never, ever consider starving/dehydrating a prisoner to death.

 

[IlluminatingBikr]

Re: Terri Schiavo

If Terri Schiavo can't feel whatever it's like being starved/dehydrated, then it shouldn't really matter. If it feels the same as a morphine overdose, then it might be considered just as humane.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

Re: Terri Schiavo

Point taken, but if there's even a shadow of a doubt that she might be feeling it, then I feel it's cruel. The news reports keep hinting that "she responds to being hugged," so apparently she's able to feel some things.

pw

 

[Frangible]

Re: Terri Schiavo

From what I understand the brain stem can feel pain... so seems like it would be more humane to give her a quick and painless death.

 

[gadget_lover]

Re: Terri Schiavo

You have to be careful with "responds to" observations. Sometimes it's wishful thinking, sometimes it's just the muscles returning to a relaxed state. I heard that there are several conditions that will make a person's mouth "smile" even if the person is unconsious. Sometimes it can even be a true response.

Daniel

 

[Leeoniya]

Re: Terri Schiavo

...of course her response has also been equated to reflexes rather than emotional or any other activity relating to higher brain function.

Edit: damnit gadget lover, yuou beat me to it.

i do agree that it is much easier to end it in 5 minutes with an injection rather than have it drag on till she starts decomposing in her bed, i dont think this is what she had in mind when she said she didnt want to be kept alive by a machine.

Leon

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

Re: Terri Schiavo

As I understand it, and I don't know any more than what Glenn Beck tells me...

For much of the 15 years, no one was even allowed (by court ORDER!) to try and see if she could perhaps chew and swallow. No real attempts at any sort of rehab what-so-ever.

Maybe that's all hog wash. But I also hear that she was asked directly "do you want to live?" and she made sounds that sounded a lot like I want live.

And if death is required, why do it by starvation/dehydration? You would be jailed if you did it to a dog or cat!!!

The whole thing STINKS!

I hope I get to meet her in heaven. And that the husband ain't there!

 

[Brad01]

Re: Terri Schiavo

For what it's worth, I think this may lead to a more active discussion of the ethics of Euthanasia.
While I don't have a particularly in-depth knowledge of the situation, it seems that life in the womb can be destroyed, and now adults that cannot speak or move much (there is question as to wether Terri is in PVS) are, perhaps, next.
Brad

 

[Frangible]

Re: Terri Schiavo

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You have to be careful with "responds to" observations. Sometimes it's wishful thinking, sometimes it's just the muscles returning to a relaxed state. I heard that there are several conditions that will make a person's mouth "smile" even if the person is unconsious. Sometimes it can even be a true response.

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I hope you're right, but I'd prefer to see that if we decide to kill someone, we make it a quick, painless death. Why a slow death? I just don't understand. We don't even do that to criminals.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

Re: Terri Schiavo

[ QUOTE ]
Frangible said:
I hope you're right, but I'd prefer to see that if we decide to kill someone, we make it a quick, painless death. Why a slow death? I just don't understand. We don't even do that to criminals.

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Exactly, death in slow motion. They could not expect any other possible outcome by removing nutrition and water, could they?

 

[Empath]

Re: Terri Schiavo

The quick death y'all are talking about is considered murder from a legal standpoint. Withholding administration of life-prolonging treatment is considered honoring the wishes of the patient. The courts decided that such was the wish of Terri.

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For much of the 15 years, no one was even allowed (by court ORDER!) to try and see if she could perhaps chew and swallow. No real attempts at any sort of rehab what-so-ever.

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That's not true. The court challenges have only been going on for 7 years, so there were no "court orders" at the start. Earlier, there were serious efforts at rehabilitation, but they were unproductive.

There are no federal laws governing such, but most states permit living wills, stating if one prefers that life-prolonging medical treatment be withheld if a quality of life can't be expected. It appears that the Florida court determined that Terri had expressed that wish, and ordered the life-prolonging medical treatment ceased.

 

[Saaby]

Re: Terri Schiavo

It's a tough situation indeed, and I do agree with you guys to some degree that it would have been nice if we could have made the whole process quicker for her, but what is it like to be brain dead? Is it possible she can have conscious thoughts but has no motor control to be able to communicate any more? Perhaps if you had been trapped in a world with yourself for over a decade you would prefer 2 weeks of dehydration to another 20 years of solitude.

Just a counterpoint to think about...

 

[V8TOYTRUCK]

Re: Terri Schiavo

Things like this can tear families apart, my grandfather (dad side) who passed away 2 weeks ago from colon cancer wanted to spend the rest of his days at home. My grandmother denied his last wish, saying she couldn't stand to see him go at home. All my uncles and aunts had mixed opinions, and with mixed opinions he was sent to a hospice, when I went to visit him I felt terrible, he didn't speak english and no one spoke Chinese, he passed away after spending 8 hours there. He died in a strange place alone.
Prior to being transferred my father and I had the difficult task of having him sign his Do Not Recesitate (DNR) form, and other forms basically saying they will not feed him through a tube, that all the nutrients he will get is through eating foods himself.

Yesterday, my grandmother on my moms side passed away after spending 2 years in a convalescent home. She suffered a stroke and half her body was paralyzed. She barely spoke and was in bed most of the day. She was surrounded by other sick or terminally ill people living out the rest of their days, I didn't want that life for her but there was no choice. She needed 24 hour supervision.

I think it is the right choice for Terry, I wouldn't want to live the rest of my life on a feeding tube, nor would I want my wife to spend the rest of her life on a feeding tube. I saw so many people at my grandmothers home brain dead being kept alive artificially by machines. Being fed by a tube. What kind of life is that? Its hard to see loves ones pass, but sometimes its just better to let go.

 

[James S]

Re: Terri Schiavo

sorry, we cannot make it quicker for her. If we were to do that then it would be necessary to legislate a whole list of situations and conditions and time frames from which we believe there to be no recovering from at which point a doctor or someone should administer a euthanasia drug?

I dont think so.

Your doctor will tell you what they think are the chances of your loved one making any recovery. It is YOUR responsibility, not the responsibility of the state or the government or anybody else to decide that for you and your loved ones.

As I mentioned above, the rate of medical change and growth of our understanding of these things is far too fast to expect any law to be able to keep up. That and the fact that very few doctors would be willing to administer euthanasia regardless of the condition of the patient. There was talk above about them giving lethal doses of morphine, but that is not generally done, and it's NEVER done overtly with a prescription for a lethal dose. Docs are not allowed to nor willing to commit murder. Even if they are unwilling to do that they will give you so much that you wont feel any pain as you slip away from the natural causes.

I can't imagine anything scarier than having the state take away my families right to keep me alive as long as they see hope. Nor a hospital that has a set of procedures and guidelines written 25 years ago and not updated on a list of circumstances in which to put people to death in the hospital.

Nope, sorry, Terri is suffering because there are no easy or simple or quick solutions to her problem. That is sometimes the way of things. The state cannot be used to make my problem the same as your problem. People are upset because in her specific case they think that the state could do a better job in determining her care than her husband who they don't trust, rightly or wrongly. But that is based on news stories and I have been outright lied to by the press so much in the last few years that I can't even watch those people on TV anymore. I know that it's not what they say, even if I don't know what it is.

People still die, they still suffer. If you're in hospice care the point is to relieve your pain while you die, and not to cause you additional suffering by making huge efforts to save your life if you crash when it has been determined by your doctors and family that such efforts would ultimately be futile. Nobody will ever kill you (on purpose anyway) in a hospital and that is the way it should be!

Don't even get me started on the new rules and guidelines that are starting to circulate in other "civilized" nations across the pond from us about when the condition of a baby warrants it's being put to death after birth or when old folks no longer are worthy of care. That is scary stuff and so far the US is not falling into that trap.

 

[nethiker]

Re: Terri Schiavo

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James S said:

I can't imagine anything scarier than having the state take away my families right to keep me alive as long as they see hope.

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I don't think this is a fair description of what's going on. One side of the family (Terri's husband) wishes to let his wife die as he thinks she would want. The other side of her family (Her parents) have been trying for a very long time to keep her alive as they think she would want.

The state was forced to intervene in this family dispute as is the job of our courts when we can't figure things out for ourselves. As I stated earlier, I believe the main issue here is who has the right to speak for Terri, her parents or her husband. The courts have sided with her husband, as I think they should. Our parents may have given us life, but when we marry we give it to another.

Just to add, one new thing I read regarding this whole affair I had never considered before and felt bad for not doing so. This has had a tremendous impact on over 70 other families at the hospice. My heart goes out to them as well, ordinary folks who turned to the hospice to make the final days of a loved one more peaceful.

Greg

 

[Greta]

Re: Terri Schiavo

So many good points being brought up here... and every post rational and civil... thanks guys... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grouphug.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Ryan said:
Is it possible she can have conscious thoughts but has no motor control to be able to communicate any more? Perhaps if you had been trapped in a world with yourself for over a decade you would prefer 2 weeks of dehydration to another 20 years of solitude.

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I've thought about this one ALOT! I know that if it were me, I'd be screaming inside... "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE LET ME DIE!!!!" I cannot imagine a worse 'HELL'... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

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Greg said:
This has had a tremendous impact on over 70 other families at the hospice. My heart goes out to them as well, ordinary folks who turned to the hospice to make the final days of a loved one more peaceful.

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This really is one very unfortunate repercussion of this case. Suddenly, people who thought that everything was in order and cut and dry are being questioned as to their motives and are being forced to re-make and defend decisions that they made long ago with conviction and certainty. Someone earlier brought up how we treat or would treat our cats and dogs under similar circumstances... well... the way I see it... we treat our pets better... at least we are allowed to end their suffering for them and allow them dignity. I've watched people that I love very much lose their dignity and pride through illness and suffering... and I KNOW that if they were aware of what they had lost, they would BEG for the same opportunity that I afford my pets.