Triples/quads are on their way out...

HighlanderNorth

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I don't own a true quad, so I cannot comment on their usefulness compared with much brighter single emitter lights. Huh, in retrospect, I would've been better off just not posting anything. Lol

Seriously though, I did own a Thrunite TN30 til 5 years ago, but I don't think it's 3 emitter design really compares with the 3-4 emitter lights being discussed here, because it's emitters were each set deeply and separately in its own separate area of the reflector, partially surrounded by a semi circular reflector. As a result, it not only gave good flood characteristics, but it also offered very impressive throw.
 
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twistedraven

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I don't think small optics will ever go away. You can squeeze out more lumen per size with them and have decent through without large diameter or depth head. They're also pretty efficient at lower output levels.


I prefer reflectors myself though. I'm getting a TN40 in, which will be my first experience with an overlapping reflector with 4 LEDs, so I'll see how I like that type of light.
 

idleprocess

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A longstanding reality of LEDs is that they're more efficient at lower currents. Within otherwise identical formfactors, running multiple LEDs at low/medium currents nets both greater lumens and runtime than a single LED at medium/high current.

The obsession with throw confounds me. As much dust, humidity, pollution, and light pollution is in the air in my region, going out to >200m away means steadily increasing backscatter to the point that you're looking at the beam path itself as much as you are light reflected from the target. I find myself using floody lights pretty regularly (increasingly these are triples and quads); the throwers are borderline useless for day-to-day tasks and used rarely. Living in the suburbs, I feel like my needs are fairly representative of a big slice of the market - dog-walking, task work, ceiling bounce, illuminating a small work space or work area, occasionally using turbo to briefly illuminate an area some tens of meters distant.

I think the big/deep reflector concept has endured more out of inertia (incandescents needed them in order to extract meaningful Cd from what were historically low-lumen sources for most of their existence) and ill-informed perception of utility on the part of the market - high Cd impresses but is not of so much use in the field. Much like how high-power LEDs have been displaced from the general lighting marked in favor of greater counts of low-/mid-power LEDs, I can see parallels in the flashlight market - less heat per component is a desirable design goal from an operating and reliability perspective.

I mean with these new bright LEDs, going forward with new pocket light designs, I think simplicity and efficiency will push the design of triples and quads from ever gaining a foothold in mass produced pocket lights. We won't see them, and if they do appear, we won't want them by then.
Pocket lights? Probably. 100-200 lumens seems to be adequate for the keychain or something single cell outside of li-ion formats. Little benefit to be had there when even the lowest-cost most humble power LEDs going into those designs can handle far more power than those designs consume. Short of some unusual bumps in LED efficiency and breakthroughs in cell technology I don't see those dynamics changing much.

But the CPF demographic doesn't buy these mass-market designs. Nor does the mass market buy lights fueled exclusively by li-ion cells priced mid double-digits and up.

And outside of pocket lights I don't see the tri-/quad-/pent-/hex-/sept-/oct-/etc-emitter trend going away. Supporting commodities are readily available from multiple producers in semi-standard formats - optics, reflectors, MCPCBs, drivers. Heck, Home Depot sells multi-emitter flashlights at prices the masses find acceptable.
 
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peter yetman

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A longstanding reality of LEDs is that they're more efficient at lower currents. Within otherwise identical formfactors, running multiple LEDs at low/medium currents nets both greater lumens and runtime than a single LED at medium/high current.
I had never considered that, thanks, good thinking Batman.
P
 

WalkIntoTheLight

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The obsession with throw confounds me. As much dust, humidity, pollution, and light pollution is in the air in my region, going out to >200m away means steadily increasing backscatter to the point that you're looking at the beam path itself as much as you are light reflected from the target.

That's a good point, and I confess that when humidity starts to increase in the summer & autumn, my dedicated throwers become somewhat impotent. But in the winter and spring, with the clean dry air, a thrower is pretty effective. Where I live, the humid summer nights haven't yet started, but will probably begin soon. The thrower was still useful last night.
 

The_Driver

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Lets look at the Pros and Cons of specifically Carclo Triple optics (the clear ones).

Pros:
  • very low height allows for shorter lights
  • allow the use of inefficient specialty high-cri LEDs and still get 1000+ lumens from a compact light
  • very easy positioning compared to other single TIR optics
  • very practical beam for walking around in the woods when used with very high brightness (2000+ lumens) and high luminance (de-domed XP-G2 sized) LEDs because of very wide hotspot with reasonable throw and a very wide outer spill
Cons:
  • Optically less efficient compared to larger single-LED TIR optics
  • compared to a single-LED TIR optic of the same diameter you get less throw because the actual optical area is smaller (wasted space around the small optics) for a LED with a given luminance
  • not available with honeycomb diffusor (better than standard diffusors if you still want a bit of throw)
  • beam artefacts in the outer spill when used with domeless LEDs
  • using three LEDs instead one introduces new, specific problems (inconsistent brightness in parallel config)
  • only XP-sized LEDs can be used (so max. 50W per LED), LEDs with large dies / domes simply don't fit

I think the single triple configuration has already died out. They are pretty much only used in expensive custom lights. The multiple triple configuration is another thing. I consider the beam of my Noctigon Meter with de-domed Nichia 219B-V1 to be extremely good and I have tried many lights over the years. It's much betters than most other flood lights (especially those with reflectors) because the hotspot is very wide, but tapers off smoothly to a dim wide spill and yet the spot still has a reasonable intensity.

For compact high-power lights (1x 26650) they simply don't make that much sense. A single XHP70.2 (or XHP50.2, Nichia 144A etc.) does the job.
 
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Fireclaw18

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I still see small triples and quads coming out or in development.

Small triple: FW3A. In development by Lumintop with assistance of BLF. Latest prototype looks incredibly promising.

Small quads: Acebeam EC65 (recently released). Several different Wuben flashlights.

Doesn't look like the format is dying out to me.
 

idleprocess

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That's a good point, and I confess that when humidity starts to increase in the summer & autumn, my dedicated throwers become somewhat impotent. But in the winter and spring, with the clean dry air, a thrower is pretty effective. Where I live, the humid summer nights haven't yet started, but will probably begin soon. The thrower was still useful last night.

Even during the winter in the DFW region in Texas they've been a marginal proposition in my book. Even the infamous "Costco HID" was a tunnel of fog - less humidity than in the other nine months of the year, but enough combined with the other factors to make it pretty useless. Could set it down and go off axis to mitigate the effect, but that messes with the utility and doesn't eliminate it.
 

Thetasigma

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Hmm, interesting thread direction and premise.

Are triples dead? For me yes, I won't make anymore soon, but that is due to perceived niche role and over-saturation of custom market. A well balanced reflector happens to be more useful for me, way wider flood than the tight spot of a quad/triple, but with a solid ~200 yard realistic range on my current EDC, I'm good. Though my current EDC pair does include a triple R9080 219B due to the above-mentioned advantage of lower current per LED, and overall higher flux, but it is only good for close range in mostly dark places, otherwise at any range or with ambient light, the notably higher lux of the single/reflector combo in my other EDC light is more useful.

Mass market? Maybe if we moved to a different light emitting source, but it seems LEDs have by and large been employed in a mix of single and multiple setups since their introduction in lights. One might make the argument for custom lights since it is a more fluid and adaptable market, but something more compelling will likely need to surface first, like a high quality aspheric if those words aren't an oxymoron...
 

IsaacL

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A longstanding reality of LEDs is that they're more efficient at lower currents.

:thumbsup: Nailed it. Until they solve the Auger effect (efficiency droop) problem, we will continue to see multi-LED lights in the high-end market.

Optics are expensive - just look at the R&D and mold costs for TIR optics - and they take up space. Therefore, single-LED lights are more common. The cost/benefit analysis is only marginally tied to performance. It's simply more expensive to design and build a multi-LED light.

I love these types of discussions because they illustrate the downsides of a consumer-driven economy.
 

idleprocess

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Optics are expensive - just look at the R&D and mold costs for TIR optics - and they take up space. Therefore, single-LED lights are more common.

Eh, as a home gamer I can source the same Carclo triples and quad optics that seem to dominate the field for ~$2 for triples and ~$3 for quads. Suspect that even in the moderate volumes that boutique producers are running they can buy them for markedly less. A quick glance at mtn electronics suggests that big TIRs are more expensive than the triples and quads.

I haven't bothered trying to price reflectors, but I suspect the situation is the same - a bit less volume of backing material for triples/quads and less reflective surface area with lower overall depth.

The cost/benefit analysis is only marginally tied to performance. It's simply more expensive to design and build a multi-LED light.

Yeah, 3 or 4 LEDs is more than components than the typical single LED, but they're commonly mated to the same amount of MCPCB and the driver circuitry probably drives the whole chain in series thus only has to be able to boost the battery output more than a typical single LED light. I see them occasionally outside of specialist brands (i.e. Convoy, Emisar) and high-end boutique makes (i.e. Okluma, Hanko) ... with somewhat increasing frequency.

In a market where everyone sells a 6000 lumen "XM-L T6" with a deep reflector, it's becoming worth it even for low-margin 12-month half-life 'zon and 'bay brands to spend a little more on the components and engineering to go for triple/quad/etc designs.
 

adnj

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I thought that "blind and wow" was the whole point. [emoji41]
 

ven

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Its happened again:ohgeez:

rPBfKy0l.jpg


another 219b 9080 45 triple ,driven by h17f all under a carclo narrow frosted exterior , just cant stop;)
 

Keitho

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another 219b 9080 45 triple ,driven by h17f all under a carclo narrow frosted exterior , just cant stop;)

Love that H17f driver, so much good programmability, and so efficient with 8x7135's. With a triple, those 7135's can get even more efficiency out of the LED because they are at lower current and lower temps. 219b's are my favorite LED as well. Nice light!
 

ven

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Have to scroll down for the info and programming, reads more complicated than it is(very user friendly). Basically 8 taps to programming, then you tap 1 or 2 or 3 etc to get into said selection/modes. For example 8 taps to programming menu, then 2 taps swaps to the other group. You can have 2 groups, each group 1 to 7 modes. Each mode can be programmed to 24 different levels of brightness.
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=659
 
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