What is the attraction of multiple-cell AA lights?

[reppans]

What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

....
If we're getting into tinfoil MacGyvering you could run an 18650 light on 3xAAAA as well, or take the head off and run it on any 3-series source. (Stick it all in a Zip-Loc to keep the rain out!) I plan to avoid such dire measures with a stock of primary cells and a 12V charger.
....
I see I'm not alone in failing to accept the advantage of AA "availability" in an emergency. I don't want to be part of the unprepared stampede clearing the shelves. (I thought people here generally shook their heads at those rushing out to buy a flashlight before a hurricane; why would needing to rush out to buy batteries before one be any smarter?)
.....
If you are raiding your own toys etc. for batteries that seems like a failure to plan. In other scenarios car batteries seem like a far better source of power.
.....

As a ultra-light camper/traveler (and former NYC train commuter), I can often be away from my home and car, and can only depend on what I have on my person and in my bag, so the effectively endless back-up options of buying in stores and cannibalizing/scavenging cells are crucial to me. (At home, I have an RV generator, and a few AA solar/12V chargers, so no worries there). Depending upon how lightweight you like to travel, and where or how long you are going, buying as you go sometimes makes more sense than carrying enough spares and/or chargers. Except for the 9v, which I found readily available in stores during the Sandy outage (power companies always bring commercial areas up first), I do agree buying cells in a SHTF event is kinda useless, but that's were the McGyver scavenging option comes into play. The key is that all the power options (cell hoarding, charging, chemistries) that are available to 18650 users, are also available to the AA users, but it's not vice versa.

With regard to the McGyver thing, I guess I was really referring more to my 1xAA collection which will run single cells down to 0.9v (as a sub-/low- lumen enthusiast, the D40A was more a novelty purchase for me). But to the point of this thread and multi-cell AA lights, you do make a good point that 3xAAAAs (or AAA/AAs) can equally power your 18650. I guess the big difference is that, with the D40A, you won't need a Ziplock bag ;-). That said, for my ultimate SHTF light - a Quark AAX - I guess I would need a Ziplock when McGyvering CR123s and 18650s, but you gotta pick your spots.

Anyways I like these threads, lots of good discussion, thoughts, and respect going around.

 

[dss_777]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I finally made the jump to 18xxx rechargeables, and spent close to $100 on a charger and just 2 18650 cells. Being me, I went with an Xtar VP1 and AW protected cells cause it's what all the cool kids have. My goal is optimal performance, and I'm willing to pay for it. And I like thinking I'm cool.

However, if you're willing to live with decent (but not great) light performance, that'd buy an awful lot of AA cells. And that's not counting the cost of the 18xxx based lights.

I would dare any one of you to add up ALL the money you've spent on your gear, and compare it to the "decent (but not great)" AA alternatives. It's expensive being so cool sometimes.

Just a thought...

 

[Cunha]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I like AA lights because Eneloops are really good batteries. If I could get D cell eneloops I would probably have some 2d mag with malkoff dropin or something.

Its just a really robust power source, and yeah, L91's can be had for 2 dollars a piece at any drug store versus mail order only or 5 or 6 dollars a piece at the same store for CR123a's.

Sometimes form factor comes into play, too.

 

[braddy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I'm also reminded of being able to use old outdated alkalines, for blackout lighting.

My first quality lights were the old battery vampires, the CMG Infinity, the Lightwave 2000, the Lightwave 4000, so I got used to never throwing away batteries, even my pretty well used up Alkalines are usable in those lights, during blackouts.

So I have Eneloops for my top lights, and a permanent junk box of used, and old Alkalines for my cheap long run, lights (and loaners). During a blackout, I can lend cheap lights and a fist full of old batteries, and tell them to just use the light as a lantern and use up as many batteries as they want.

I'm testing what I hope is a battery vampire right now. that I bought from a thrift shop for a dollar, it runs on 2 AAs and I am testing it with two batteries, one of which was "best used by" 2008, if I get 150 or more hours out of it, then I will make a diffuser for it and put it with my blackout lights, for my use, or as a loaner, if the battery leaks, it isn't important.

 

[reppans]

What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I did some 2xAA vampire testing with Alks and found it to be very good at popping cells (aka, battery "fart" - puffing out the rubber boots) via reverse charge.

 

[Disciple]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I don't agree with your original assertion that 18650 are cheaper than AA Nimh. In the UK this certainly is not the case. A decent 18650 (3400 mah Eagetec) is £14 each in the UK. 4 AA eneloops can be bought for £7.99 (sometimes cheaper). Good quality 7dayshop staycharged AA can be had for as little as £3.99 for 4. In addition many people already have an AA charger, whereas a decent LiIon charger is £20+.

So I bought a LD41 for my sister last year and gave her a pack of 7dayshop AA's to go with it (she already has charger). To buy a 18650 light I would have added approx £30 to the cost!!

I finally made the jump to 18xxx rechargeables, and spent close to $100 on a charger and just 2 18650 cells. Being me, I went with an Xtar VP1 and AW protected cells cause it's what all the cool kids have. My goal is optimal performance, and I'm willing to pay for it.

I am looking at really different numbers. The lowest price I have found for a 4xAA pack of eneloops is about $11.50 shipped. For less than that I can get TWO protected 18650 2600mAh cells from FastTech (shipped), each with more capacity than the four eneloops combined. (I also got TWO protected Panasonic 3400mAh cells from Illumination Supply for under $22 shipped, if you want to compare eneloop XX prices.) My Xtar VP1 charger was $31.25. For $71 shipped I have 60 watt hours of storage from good cells (Sanyo, Samsung, Panasonic) and a good quality charger to match. Can you show me better with eneloops?

By the way, I have learned from other CPF threads that eneloops should be charged at between 0.5C and 1C for reliable detection of cycle completion so the bundled chargers are not good. More $$$ to board the eneloop train. (Again I acknowledge that I am the oddball to whom NiMH AA is exotic.)

Not all battery fires are bad batteries, chargers, or abuse. But gladly accepting a new failure mode into my life (New ways to burn the house down) is something I want to go into with Both Eyes Open. Several posts in that subforum are things that should have gone right and didn't. The same high energy density in Li-Ion cells makes them more dangerous when something does go wrong. Many failure modes are common between NiMH and Li-Ion chemistries failing. More chemical energy (And worse fumes) makes the Li-Ion more troubling to me.

This is very important to me. (You know I have asked you safety questions before.) Would you please show me where protected 18650 cells failed dangerously without serious mishandling? I need to read that.

The 18650 is much larger than a single AA. My L3 L10 gives me days of light or an hour of plenty of light on one AA. That's convenience and a superior form factor for small-pocket carry than even a bare 18650 cell.

I specifically said multiple-AA lights because there is obvious utility in single-cell AA and AAA lights. Instead I wondered (originally) why anyone would choose 4xAA over 1x18650, and from purely a form factor perspective I still wonder. (BTW, I gave a 5mm LED converted mini Mag with lithium AA's to each immediate family member about six years ago so they would have something to reach for in need. I think most of them are still running on the original batteries!)

As a ultra-light camper/traveler (and former NYC train commuter), I can often be away from my home and car, and can only depend on what I have on my person and in my bag, so the effectively endless back-up options of buying in stores and cannibalizing/scavenging cells are crucial to me. ... Depending upon how lightweight you like to travel, and where or how long you are going, buying as you go sometimes makes more sense than carrying enough spares and/or chargers.

Great point! Soon I'll update my original post with a "what I learned" section and this will be included.

With regard to the McGyver thing, I guess I was really referring more to my 1xAA collection which will run single cells down to 0.9v (as a sub-/low- lumen enthusiast, the D40A was more a novelty purchase for me). But to the point of this thread and multi-cell AA lights, you do make a good point that 3xAAAAs (or AAA/AAs) can equally power your 18650. I guess the big difference is that, with the D40A, you won't need a Ziplock bag ;-). That said, for my ultimate SHTF light - a Quark AAX - I guess I would need a Ziplock when McGyvering CR123s and 18650s, but you gotta pick your spots.

Anyways I like these threads, lots of good discussion, thoughts, and respect going around.

Although a number of people have inferred from my original question that I have an anti-AA stance it's not true. I too consider AA lights an important part of an emergency plan. In my case they are the 5mm LED converted incan mini MagLites I mentioned above which appear to run for a very long time on lithium AA cells. Based on your "2xAA vampire testing" I may need to reconsider this, but I do like the fact that there is no driver to fail in the direct drive mini Mags and that 5mm LEDs are about as robust as it gets. (Does anyone else still have one of these conversions?)

 

[AnAppleSnail]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

This is very important to me. (You know I have asked you safety questions before.) Would you please show me where protected 18650 cells failed dangerously without serious mishandling? I need to read that.

The legendary laptop fires were mismanufactured 18650 cells. However, ignoring safety issues caused by mistakes, carelessness, or negligence may be inappropriate. This depends on your situation. Most quality batteries are extensively counterfeited, leaving you (And even your vendors) little knowledge that a given cell is even reasonably well-made.

Most 18650 failures happen during charging or short-circuit events. These are the main times when a lot of energy is around. Excess energy + enclosed chemicals = bomb. A short-circuit risk is just a shrinkwrap-tear away, and careless charging is one long night up with a sick toddler away. I don't keep a lot of Li-Ion cells around for these reasons.

Here is some great reading on Li-Ion safety (failures) Click PDF with an overview of the most common failures. It's difficult to get good statistics on failure rates of hobbyist cells. Most people immediately dismiss all failures as user error... As if no users will ever make errors.

 

[Theron]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I like CR123A and 18650 personally. CR123As are about the same size as AAAs and deliver more power and 18650s are about the same size as AAs and deliver more power.

I do like some AAA lights though like the Fenix E05 and the Prometheus QR that's coming soon. AAAs are also better for remotes because they are thinner.

 

[El Camino]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I like both. I typically EDC an 18560 light. I often keep a spare battery in an airtight container in my car. If I'm in a pinch, I can get some CR123s from most drug stores or Lowe's.

When I travel, I also take a long a 2x AA light, some spare eneloops, and a charger. In a pinch I can get Energizer lithiums or reguklar alkies (which I don't like, but it's better than nothing).

I usually have a 2x AAA light as a backup, in case I run out of juice, but can't find AAs. I like to have options.

 

[dss_777]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I am looking at really different numbers. The lowest price I have found for a 4xAA pack of eneloops is about $11.50 shipped. For less than that I can get TWO protected 18650 2600mAh cells from FastTech (shipped), each with more capacity than the four eneloops combined. (I also got TWO protected Panasonic 3400mAh cells from Illumination Supply for under $22 shipped, if you want to compare eneloop XX prices.) My Xtar VP1 charger was $31.25. For $71 shipped I have 60 watt hours of storage from good cells (Sanyo, Samsung, Panasonic) and a good quality charger to match. Can you show me better with eneloops?

...

Although a number of people have inferred from my original question that I have an anti-AA stance it's not true. I too consider AA lights an important part of an emergency plan. In my case they are the 5mm LED converted incan mini MagLites I mentioned above which appear to run for a very long time on lithium AA cells. Based on your "2xAA vampire testing" I may need to reconsider this, but I do like the fact that there is no driver to fail in the direct drive mini Mags and that 5mm LEDs are about as robust as it gets. (Does anyone else still have one of these conversions?)

Just to make the point, I was referring to retail pricing on top tier rechargeable stuff, and comparing it to how many off the shelf Alkalines primaries you could get for that. We're the 1%-ers when it comes to flashlights, willing to invest in good tech and keep it running. While there are certainly value-priced options, it struck me how many AA batteries you could get for a basic rechargeable LiIon setup. And, since the well-performing lights that use them are also less expensive, you can get a great deal of use out of that combo.

FWIW, I'm also glad to have both, and see real value in both solutions. I'd also agree that 4xAA vs. 1x18650 definitely crosses the line as far as utility goes. While there is a case to be made (as many have said), for the AA equivalent of the 18650 lights, my preference is for 1x or 2xAA lights for the 99%-ers and other special use situations. Then, it's rechargeables for everything else expected to do serious work, regular duty, and/or perform at the higher levels we want and expect.

Just so you know, my winter travel plans require ultra-light packing. That means I'm following reppans lead and taking a single Fenix EO1 with a few AAA lithium primaries for backup. All the cool stuff stays at home. After the intial detox, I should be fine.

 

[markr6]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I don't like multiple-AA lights at all. But I love single-AA lights for the size and adequate output. Anything beyond that for runtime and output you might as well use an 18650.

 

[reppans]

What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Just so you know, my winter travel plans require ultra-light packing. That means I'm following reppans lead and taking a single Fenix EO1 with a few AAA lithium primaries for backup. All the cool stuff stays at home. After the intial detox, I should be fine.

I'd suggest using a Preon P0 as a spare battery container for one of those cells - just in case you need insane runtime, and "two is one, one is none" and all. And carry a little piece of tinfoil in your wallet, in case all you can find is a 9V ;-)

 

[litlmh]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

For me, buying multiple-AA lights boils down to this thought process:
- I already have other lights that use AAs, so I have a bunch of NiMH LSD cells on hand.
- I always have spare AA NiMH LSD cells charged up at home, and in my backpack, because most of my devices use AA batteries, and my EDCs can run AA batteries. So I am already carrying spares in case I run out of power.
- I don't own any 18650 batteries, and I don't want to worry about Li-Co and Li-Mn chemistries, charging them, the potential for venting with flames, etc.
- Even if 3xAA or 4xAA is slightly larger than 1x18650, it's not significantly cumbersome, provides me as many lumens as I need, and I can just recharge them at the end of the day, so runtime is never an issue.

So there's my reasoning! :thumbsup:

 

[Rexlion]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Suppose you're going camping in the boondocks, or you are faced with a lengthy power outage (days or weeks). You could find yourself having to push your cells to the limit and running them down completely, because you need the light. Well, if you exhaust a Li-Ion, you've probably trashed it. But if you run your Eneloops flat, no harm done.

And in those situations, chances are good that you can rob some AAs out of some other device to squeeze out more light when you need it. They're ubiquitous.

I use AA and AAA lights every day. The 18650 lights, well, they get occasional use.

 

[dc38]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

To this question : Pardon me if I'm reading this wrong, but did you just describe a urine-cell?

Yes, yes I did.

 

[AMD64Blondie]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Although I like other battery types..(The HDS Rotary 200 I just ordered is a CR123A light)..I always reach for my AA lights first.

Case in point:my Nitecore EA4,a 4AA light.

 

[Disciple]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

AMD64Blondie: Why?

 

[eff]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I don't think I understand the desirability of AA-cell lights. I was rather enthusiastic about the Sunwayman D40A until I realized that according to tests on http://lygte-info.dk four AA eneloops have less energy than a single 2600mah 18650 cell. The more expensive eneloop XX batteries have greater self-discharge, and still four are roughly matched by a single 3400mah 18650 cell. Further, 18650 cells can be purchased less expensively than I have been able to find four eneloops.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but another reason to prefer AA over lithium ion (note that I'm not talking about CR123 here) is readiness in case of a disaster scenario.

If you're using 18650 lights (or any other lithium rechargeable lights), you'll need to rotate your batteries regularly (to prevent them from swelling). With a small number of 18650s this may be easy. But with a fair number of batteries it might be more problematic. You'll then have to charge them for storage, at around 40 to 50% of their capacity (ie batteryuniversity). In the case of a hurricane you may get a few hours or more of warning, to charge them all to 100%. But in the case of an earthquake, etc... you might not have that time. So the question is, would you run around with only half charged batteries ?


You can always switch over to CR123. But in this case, better use a 1 cell flashlight, to prevent from having a cell reversal incident. The last thing you'd want while bugging out, is being injured or ending up with a damaged light. In the case of 1xCR123, you won't get the power of 16340, 18650, etc. .., and your options will be a bit more limited

Another solution would be to use lights with multiple AA, preferably Low self discharge Nimh.

 

[markr6]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I have a feeling we're getting off topic and merging into a "AA vs 18650" thread. Maybe the OP would like to clarify.

Are we talking about "multiple-AA lights" as in 2xAA, 3xAA etc? Or multiple-AA lights such as a handful of 1xAA lights? I'm assuming the former since he mentioned the 4xAA D40A.

 

[Poppy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?

I have a feeling we're getting off topic and merging into a "AA vs 18650" thread. Maybe the OP would like to clarify.

Are we talking about "multiple-AA lights" as in 2xAA, 3xAA etc? Or multiple-AA lights such as a handful of 1xAA lights? I'm assuming the former since he mentioned the 4xAA D40A.

markr6,
The OP already clarified that he meant MULTIPLE CELL AA lights in post# 32

Originally Posted by Poppy No one is arguing whether a single or dual cell AA light has value. If you read my post, I stated that I carry in my car a 18650 charger, AND a AA/AAA charger. I also carry AA and AAA lights.

The OP was referring to AA lights with multiple cells, 4 cells, 6 cells, or 8 cells. He was questioning... why buy them, instead of one or two celled 18650 lights?

Thank you for comprehending the subtlety of my question.