I am struggling to see when I would want to buy an incandescent. I certainly see the use in having an HID light, though I can't afford one. And it seems like the incancesdents that break the 200 lumen barrier of the top LED's (e.g., Cree Q5), are extremely pricey as well. Am I right that the only real reason to go with an incandescent anymore is if you want LOT of output, and you can't wait a few years for LEDs to get there?
When to get an incandescent?
- Thread starter slagell
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pbs357
Enlightened
Well, I'm a Q5 LED guy myself but in my experience incandescent light cuts through dense fog and driving rain better than LED light. I suppose if you were a park ranger, or other emergency search team member it would be good to have a strong incan for these types of weather conditions.
adamlau
Flashlight Enthusiast
I favor incans for their output, ability to cut through inclement weather conditions and superior CRI.
Germ
Enlightened
I think you have a good grasp of the current state of flashlight technology.
I love my Fenix P1D CE Q5 and SureFire G3L. I don't really feel the need for incans in their power range. For more power I go to incans. I have a 2D ROP, a Leef 2x18500, and a SureFire G3 that I use when I want to see further or want better color rendition. I like to carry both a good LED and a bright incan when I go walking.
I would advise anyone to get a light that is easily upgraded. I like the Leef and the SureFire for their ability to take drop in upgrades. When 500 lumen LED drop ins are available I'm ready.
I love my Fenix P1D CE Q5 and SureFire G3L. I don't really feel the need for incans in their power range. For more power I go to incans. I have a 2D ROP, a Leef 2x18500, and a SureFire G3 that I use when I want to see further or want better color rendition. I like to carry both a good LED and a bright incan when I go walking.
I would advise anyone to get a light that is easily upgraded. I like the Leef and the SureFire for their ability to take drop in upgrades. When 500 lumen LED drop ins are available I'm ready.
I feel the same way. My G2 is my only incan left, and I don't know what to do with it. I find I am always grabbing my G2 LED instead because it has similar output with much better battery life. I didn't do the P60L drop-in because I wanted the AL bezel for heat disbursement. My TLE-5ex, Lowe's Task Force Cree, and G2 LED all have better output. If I upgrade to the P61 lamp, I get a lot more output, but still not any more than my TLE-5ex minimag or the Lowe's Task Force, and certainly less than the Fenix P3D CE Q5 I plan to order. Plus, most people seem a little disappointed because the P61 doesn't give any more throw, just a lot better fill.
This G2 is a great light, but I just don't know what to do with it. FOr that kind of medium output, I want a lot more life. I feel like I should still have an incan, but I can't afford an M6 or 10x dominator which would compliment my collection a lot better. So it just seems that I have this G2 that sits around because it is never the right light for the job.
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mr.squatch
Enlightened
incans show flesh tones a lot better than leds. Something I think about a lot when preparing for the zombie holocaust. I'll be ready with my trusty hotwire and save my led's for long-lasting non-critical adventures.
g
g
Icebreak
Flashlight Enthusiast
Here is a test. The answers are provided for ease of reading.
1) Environment: Fair to poor office lighting.
Would light from a blue LED peaking near 470 nm help or hinder in reading small print?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some people report that it blurs the print and hurts their eyes, some report there is not much difference, still others report a significant increase in their ability to read small print. One legally blind individual reported being able to retain their job which required reading small print simply by employing the use of a blue LED torch. He could not perform this function without the aid of blue Inova even with powerful glasses.
2) Environment: Low ambient lighting during a stage presentation such as a play.
Would light from red LEDs peaking near 625 nm spotting the target character help or hinder in defining the image of the target character?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some members of the audience will experience little effect in definition; others will notice a slight blurring; still others will notice some increase in definition. What most audience members will notice is a different definition rendition as well as a different depth rendition in comparison to everything else on the stage. These two differences highlight the target character and set that target character apart almost as much the obvious difference of the red color.
One individual reported that they were so visually impaired that they could barely navigate in low ambient light situations without the use of both a powerful blue light and a powerful red light used simultaneously. They designed and used a head mounted dual LED device to successfully satisfy this need.
3) Environment: Woods/Forest at night, clear sky, away from population and no moon.
Would light from a cyan LED peaking near 505 nm help or hinder vision in the area of defining the target image?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some individuals report that they lose so much color rendition that they feel almost bewildered. Others report a preference for cyan in this environment due to its definition of target capability as well as its particular color rendition capability. With effort, individuals can train their eyes/vision processing to take advantage of the aspects some wavelengths afford.
4) Environment: Woods/Forest at night, clear sky, away from population and no moon.
Would light from a royal blue LED peaking near 455 nm help or hinder vision in the area of defining the target image?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some individuals report a blurring effect; others nothing; others reported that it was pretty. One individual reported that he could read distant signs he could not possibly read without royal blue light returning the image. Other individuals substantiated this report with their own real world investigations.
5) Environment: Jewelry store, low to no lighting.
Which frequency of light is best for causing diamonds to fluoresce?
Answer:
380 nm. 395nm will work also. However not all diamonds fluoresce. Some diamonds fluoresce different colors. If a yellowish diamond fluoresces blue, the effect could be strong enough to mask the yellowish tint when viewed in a jewelry store's fluorescent lighting. You might be surprised by the diamond's true color when you look at it at home under different lighting. The reverse is true for diamonds that fluoresce yellow. They can appear more white under incandescent lights, but acquire a yellowish tint in ultraviolet light. A strong yellow fluorescence bring diamond prices down, sometimes quite a bit, since yellowish tinted diamonds are generally less desirable than whiter stones. A blue fluorescence can help increase the prices of diamonds with yellowish tones.
6) Environment: Low ambient lighting during a stage presentation such as a play.
Which of these colors of light would be easiest to hide from the audience on non-target backgrounds; blue 470 nm, red 625 nm, cyan 505 nm or royal blue 455 nm?
Answer:
blue 470 nm.
7) Environment: Medical diagnosis.
Which color of light would be best for diagnosing subdermal vascular anomalies; blue 470 nm, red 625 nm, cyan 505 nm or royal blue 455 nm?
Answer:
red 625 nm
8) Environment: Woods/Forest at night, clear sky, away from population and no moon.
What color of light is best for tracking blood?
Answer:
The discussion continues among folks all over the world in many different venues. Some individuals report blue works for it's absorption properties. Some individuals report that red works for its reflective properties. Some individuals report that a strong warm/white LED works very well while still others report that incandescent light is best for them.
9) Environment: World.
Which personal lighting tool is better for rendering diverse target images; LED or incandescent?
Answer:
It depends on the target and possibly more importantly it is dependent on the individual observer. All perspectives are valid.
Each individual has unique optical capabilities. Each individual has unique image processing capabilities. For a moment, couple all the above mentioned light frequencies and their different renditions of different targets with the fact that individuals see images differently. All those colors. All those targets. All those eyeballs. All those brains. One would think it would be a simple logical step forward to accept that one type of light is better for one person's interpretation of a target image and a different type of light is better for another person's interpretation of a target image. My observations indicate to me that it is in fact not such an easy logical step.
I think I may know why. It has to do with what is right before your eyes. We instinctively trust our vision for survival. What we see must be correct because we are seeing it. Now that might be considered to be empirical evidence. Add to that varying degrees of knowledge of light. From here the individual might submit that what works for them does so because of scientific fact. Since the preference is evidenced empirically and is supported by scientific fact, the preference might be considered an absolute. It's not.
This is the complicated part of the pot of ingredients that can produce enthusiastic discussions and sometimes those discussions can cook up to produce quite a spicy dish of conversational fare.
And there's more. One very interesting fellow has let me know (and I now agree with him) that people can train their eyes to use different types of light to enhance the information they receive from an image. Further he contends and I agree, that individuals can train their light processing capabilities and can even recalibrate their processors using different techniques not limited to but including simple concentration.
These words I'm using to attempt to make a point may or may not be of use. Let's try another question. Is a blue LED the best choice for reading a map? Why, of course not. The best light for reading a map would be incandescent. No wait. The best light would be warmish white LED outputting exactly 128 lux. Maybe not. Remember that legally blind fellow who's job depended on his ability to read small text and this task could only be accomplished by enhancing the target with a blue Inova? He doesn't care what color the interstate is. He just wants to know where I-40 West is. Now if he and I were in a "save the world" scenario and he was the guy that had to cut the correct wire on the bomb before the timer reached zero, I might be inclined to hand him an incandescent light for its color rendition capability. A better choice for me, if time allowed, would be to ask him which light he would prefer for the task at hand. In this case his opinion makes a world of difference to me.
Like many, I have certain lighting preferences for different tasks.
While night fishing I prefer to use a tiny LED torch to tie lures, a no-spill TIR LED torch to spot the fish the guy twenty feet from me just pulled on shore and a powerful incan torch to see if that's a small branch or large snake floating in the water. Not everyone will prefer my choices. Individuals see images differently and process those images differently. If a fellow tells me he has no problem identifying an un-moving mostly submerged cotton-mouth water moccasin at 30 feet out using an LED flashlight I'm inclined to believe his choice is best for him despite my own personal empirical evidence or my somewhat limited grasp of the science of light.
I hope that was of some help.
Oh yes, your question. When to get an incandescent? When you've determined it is the best type of lighting for you for the application it is intended to be used for.
1) Environment: Fair to poor office lighting.
Would light from a blue LED peaking near 470 nm help or hinder in reading small print?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some people report that it blurs the print and hurts their eyes, some report there is not much difference, still others report a significant increase in their ability to read small print. One legally blind individual reported being able to retain their job which required reading small print simply by employing the use of a blue LED torch. He could not perform this function without the aid of blue Inova even with powerful glasses.
2) Environment: Low ambient lighting during a stage presentation such as a play.
Would light from red LEDs peaking near 625 nm spotting the target character help or hinder in defining the image of the target character?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some members of the audience will experience little effect in definition; others will notice a slight blurring; still others will notice some increase in definition. What most audience members will notice is a different definition rendition as well as a different depth rendition in comparison to everything else on the stage. These two differences highlight the target character and set that target character apart almost as much the obvious difference of the red color.
One individual reported that they were so visually impaired that they could barely navigate in low ambient light situations without the use of both a powerful blue light and a powerful red light used simultaneously. They designed and used a head mounted dual LED device to successfully satisfy this need.
3) Environment: Woods/Forest at night, clear sky, away from population and no moon.
Would light from a cyan LED peaking near 505 nm help or hinder vision in the area of defining the target image?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some individuals report that they lose so much color rendition that they feel almost bewildered. Others report a preference for cyan in this environment due to its definition of target capability as well as its particular color rendition capability. With effort, individuals can train their eyes/vision processing to take advantage of the aspects some wavelengths afford.
4) Environment: Woods/Forest at night, clear sky, away from population and no moon.
Would light from a royal blue LED peaking near 455 nm help or hinder vision in the area of defining the target image?
Answer:
It depends on the individual. Some individuals report a blurring effect; others nothing; others reported that it was pretty. One individual reported that he could read distant signs he could not possibly read without royal blue light returning the image. Other individuals substantiated this report with their own real world investigations.
5) Environment: Jewelry store, low to no lighting.
Which frequency of light is best for causing diamonds to fluoresce?
Answer:
380 nm. 395nm will work also. However not all diamonds fluoresce. Some diamonds fluoresce different colors. If a yellowish diamond fluoresces blue, the effect could be strong enough to mask the yellowish tint when viewed in a jewelry store's fluorescent lighting. You might be surprised by the diamond's true color when you look at it at home under different lighting. The reverse is true for diamonds that fluoresce yellow. They can appear more white under incandescent lights, but acquire a yellowish tint in ultraviolet light. A strong yellow fluorescence bring diamond prices down, sometimes quite a bit, since yellowish tinted diamonds are generally less desirable than whiter stones. A blue fluorescence can help increase the prices of diamonds with yellowish tones.
6) Environment: Low ambient lighting during a stage presentation such as a play.
Which of these colors of light would be easiest to hide from the audience on non-target backgrounds; blue 470 nm, red 625 nm, cyan 505 nm or royal blue 455 nm?
Answer:
blue 470 nm.
7) Environment: Medical diagnosis.
Which color of light would be best for diagnosing subdermal vascular anomalies; blue 470 nm, red 625 nm, cyan 505 nm or royal blue 455 nm?
Answer:
red 625 nm
8) Environment: Woods/Forest at night, clear sky, away from population and no moon.
What color of light is best for tracking blood?
Answer:
The discussion continues among folks all over the world in many different venues. Some individuals report blue works for it's absorption properties. Some individuals report that red works for its reflective properties. Some individuals report that a strong warm/white LED works very well while still others report that incandescent light is best for them.
9) Environment: World.
Which personal lighting tool is better for rendering diverse target images; LED or incandescent?
Answer:
It depends on the target and possibly more importantly it is dependent on the individual observer. All perspectives are valid.
Each individual has unique optical capabilities. Each individual has unique image processing capabilities. For a moment, couple all the above mentioned light frequencies and their different renditions of different targets with the fact that individuals see images differently. All those colors. All those targets. All those eyeballs. All those brains. One would think it would be a simple logical step forward to accept that one type of light is better for one person's interpretation of a target image and a different type of light is better for another person's interpretation of a target image. My observations indicate to me that it is in fact not such an easy logical step.
I think I may know why. It has to do with what is right before your eyes. We instinctively trust our vision for survival. What we see must be correct because we are seeing it. Now that might be considered to be empirical evidence. Add to that varying degrees of knowledge of light. From here the individual might submit that what works for them does so because of scientific fact. Since the preference is evidenced empirically and is supported by scientific fact, the preference might be considered an absolute. It's not.
This is the complicated part of the pot of ingredients that can produce enthusiastic discussions and sometimes those discussions can cook up to produce quite a spicy dish of conversational fare.
And there's more. One very interesting fellow has let me know (and I now agree with him) that people can train their eyes to use different types of light to enhance the information they receive from an image. Further he contends and I agree, that individuals can train their light processing capabilities and can even recalibrate their processors using different techniques not limited to but including simple concentration.
These words I'm using to attempt to make a point may or may not be of use. Let's try another question. Is a blue LED the best choice for reading a map? Why, of course not. The best light for reading a map would be incandescent. No wait. The best light would be warmish white LED outputting exactly 128 lux. Maybe not. Remember that legally blind fellow who's job depended on his ability to read small text and this task could only be accomplished by enhancing the target with a blue Inova? He doesn't care what color the interstate is. He just wants to know where I-40 West is. Now if he and I were in a "save the world" scenario and he was the guy that had to cut the correct wire on the bomb before the timer reached zero, I might be inclined to hand him an incandescent light for its color rendition capability. A better choice for me, if time allowed, would be to ask him which light he would prefer for the task at hand. In this case his opinion makes a world of difference to me.
Like many, I have certain lighting preferences for different tasks.
While night fishing I prefer to use a tiny LED torch to tie lures, a no-spill TIR LED torch to spot the fish the guy twenty feet from me just pulled on shore and a powerful incan torch to see if that's a small branch or large snake floating in the water. Not everyone will prefer my choices. Individuals see images differently and process those images differently. If a fellow tells me he has no problem identifying an un-moving mostly submerged cotton-mouth water moccasin at 30 feet out using an LED flashlight I'm inclined to believe his choice is best for him despite my own personal empirical evidence or my somewhat limited grasp of the science of light.
I hope that was of some help.
Oh yes, your question. When to get an incandescent? When you've determined it is the best type of lighting for you for the application it is intended to be used for.
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Germ
Enlightened
I feel the same way about my SureFire E2D. That was the light that showed me how bad MagLites were and turned me into a flashaholic. I have a 5th run fivemega adapter in it with a Strion bulb so I can use rechargeables. I still can't seem to want to grab it when I go out. I'd get a LED head for it if it kept the same crenelated head look. I can't part with it for sentimental reasons and because it is so purty. I just can't seem to find a use for it. I'll try the right LED conversion when it comes along.
slagell, have you tried a P91 bulbed light? I'm really fond of the 3 cell form factor now and the light from the P91 or Lumens Factory EO-9 is really a step up from the P60L LED lamp, about 2 to 3 times as bright with more throw. My local gun store sells the G3 for $47. I pieced together the 2x18500 Leef bodied light for about $150. These lights should be about as bright as the M6 low, but probably won't throw nearly as far.
Edited to add: I also found a store selling G3L's for $45. Brick and mortar stores seem to beating online stores for SureFire lights. The G3L with the metal head would seem to be a better light for future LED upgrades than the G3. The G3L does come with a plastic lens though which should be replaced with glass if you want to run high power incan lamps.
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adamlau
Flashlight Enthusiast
Now that is certainly a good price for a NIB G3L :twothumbs
chuck4570
Enlightened
If you have to think hard about an incan, then don't bother with them, stick with what you like. I personally like the incans, I don't know if it is because I am colorblind or not, but when I use a LED outside everything looks flat to me, no definition, and with a warm incan everything looks right. I don't know why alot of people think only incans that will rip the shingles off of your house are the only good ones, but one of my favorite lights is a Surefire E2e with a 25 lumen LA in it, good runtime, and enoght light for most tasks that I have to do, it will always get to a brighter light if needed. I'm not saying I don't like LED lights, (about 1/3 of my lights are LED's), but I hope to always have a good incan around, (my stockpile of MN02 is around 25 now, I know a little crazy). The great thing about this addiction, is with the sizes of quality lights out out there, it is easy to ECD 2 lights no problem, my 2 are Surefire E1e and L1Cree.
Germ
Enlightened
chuck4570, I agree, LED's give things like looking into an area with trees a flat look.
Given the choice between an incan and a LED light of equal brightness I would probably still reach for the LED for the following reasons: The LED will probably have a more uniform beam. The LED is less likely to burn out or break. The LED light will probably have multiple modes. The LED will maintain constant brightness and then dip to let me know to change the batteries. I don't like the idea of the gradual death of the incan brightness. And the LED light will run much longer.
Given the choice between an incan and a LED light of equal brightness I would probably still reach for the LED for the following reasons: The LED will probably have a more uniform beam. The LED is less likely to burn out or break. The LED light will probably have multiple modes. The LED will maintain constant brightness and then dip to let me know to change the batteries. I don't like the idea of the gradual death of the incan brightness. And the LED light will run much longer.
chuck4570
Enlightened
Thats why it is great to carry both types of lights, life is full of choices this way I always have the right choice.
I hadn't had an incandescent that I've used in years. Sure, I've had a couple MAG Lights in the drawers and a pile of batteries next to them for emergencies, but I never really use them. Mostly for the last few years I've been using various LED based lights like Coast and EternalLights, and more recently my SureFire L2.
Last Friday I took advantage of the Sportsman's Warehouse awesome Surefire sale to pick up an A2 Aviator (the only incandescent I've really ever considered) and wow, it's different!
The incandescent is about as bright to my eyes as my L2 on High, and the LED mode is about similar to my L2 on Low (but I now understand the Angry Blue issue). The color reproduction from the incandescent in my A2 is so much better than my L2, or my Fenix Q5, or anything else I have.
I'm not really sure what function my A2 is going to fill long-term once I'm done carrying it in my jacket pocket to play with, but I don't regret getting one. Once I switch it to a Red LED ring It may replace my L2 for most tasks just because of the nice spectrum of light it throws out, it may not be better or brighter light, but it's much more pleasing to my eyes.
Last Friday I took advantage of the Sportsman's Warehouse awesome Surefire sale to pick up an A2 Aviator (the only incandescent I've really ever considered) and wow, it's different!
The incandescent is about as bright to my eyes as my L2 on High, and the LED mode is about similar to my L2 on Low (but I now understand the Angry Blue issue). The color reproduction from the incandescent in my A2 is so much better than my L2, or my Fenix Q5, or anything else I have.
I'm not really sure what function my A2 is going to fill long-term once I'm done carrying it in my jacket pocket to play with, but I don't regret getting one. Once I switch it to a Red LED ring It may replace my L2 for most tasks just because of the nice spectrum of light it throws out, it may not be better or brighter light, but it's much more pleasing to my eyes.
Germ
Enlightened
The shop with the $45 G3L's was Ronning Arms in Modesto, California. They were having a 15% off sale, otherwise the lights were marked at $52 which was still a great deal. At $45 I couldn't say no. They had great deals on several SureFire lights. I just called them and they didn't have any G3L's.
I was on vacation and wanted to get a G3 and P91 lamp for a cousin as a spur of the moment Christmas gift. All Ronning Arms had was G3L's. I ended up getting 2 because of the price (one for him and one for me). I'm glad I did. I like the G3L a lot. It has a bright, broad beam that is great for a walking light. The beam is on the blue side though, but I don't mind it so much. I love the long runtime. The light is a good replacement for my dead Streamlight ProPoly Luxeon.
My local gunshop is Shooters in Columbus, Georgia. They said they didn't have any G3L's either.
Where do you live? Call around where you live and see if anyone has any G3L's or can get them.
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MikeLip
Flashlight Enthusiast
You can get an HID for $150 - the Amondotech N30. It absolutely kicks butt. For the price of two or three Fenixes or one mid-range Surefire you can have a firebreather. Batteryjunction.
Still out of my range, but some day maybe.
Even the Fenix is out of my range, but my mother-in-law wants to buy me a nice gift.Not exactly $45, but there are a couple guys on ebay that sell new G3's for $54 shipped. Just search for "G3 Nitrolon" and they should pop up. I'm about to get one myself.........
Oh, and I picked up one of the "Power on Board" aka Sam's Club HID lights....and couldn't be more pleased. I don't have anything to compare it to, but for $50, you can't beat it. They list new for ~$79, but again thanks to ebay, you can find them for $50-ish from time to time. A bit on the heavy side, but part of that is the fact it has its charger built into it.
Sgt. LED
Flashaholic
When it's attached to a 3 LED Surefire.
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