Which waste less, EV or ICE?

[Darell]

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evan9162 said:
Darell,

Have fun storming the castle!

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I was a good boy. At least until the end when I asked, quite simply, "why?" I was fascinated with the response, but this could be a new huge thread in and of itself. If others are interested, I'd be happy to take this to my latest general Alt Vehicle thread that has died on the vine of late. Or we could just do it here, I suppose. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif When these threads get interesting, it is often just best to go with the flow.

Oh, and I did specifially ask about the use of H2 in the space program. Got a great answer above and beyond what we've written here (though our answers were apparently accurate, fortunately). The benefit of using H2 in space where humans are involved is that the fuel cell reaction creates drinking water, low-grade heat, and electricity. What's not to love? How great is it that you can use all of the "waste" products of a given reaction? Add to this that H2 can hold a reasonable amount of energy per weight, and you've got a pretty good "energy carrier." So again - right tool for the right job. What makes it great for certain projects in space does NOT make it the best way to power our automobiles. We seem to like gasoline in our cars - ever wonder why we don't use it in the space program? NOT the right tool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

 

[Steve K]

on the subject of "which wastes less, the space shuttle or a satellite?".....

well, not exactly.
Anyway, the space shuttle uses fuel cells because it can't be equipped with the needed amount of solar panels. How would you put big solar panels on an item that is constantly going from earth to orbit and back?? Plus, it has to open the cargo bay doors, etc. Just not practical.

and for what it's worth, I spent four years at McDonnell Douglas working on a battery power system for satellites. Very cool stuff! It was old technology, but quite elegant. The charging system for the nicads was very gentle; we got over 5 years life from the batteries, in which they had a charge/discharge cycle every 90 minutes (not full charge/discharge, tho). Our system is what powered satellites like the Gamma Ray Observatory, the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite, the Ocean Topography Explorer (aka TOPEX), as well as a bunch of sneaky satellites that Martin Marietta was building.
That was a very interesting job.

Steve K.

 

[cobb]

Wow, heat, water and energy, sounds like a win win situation. Now doesnt that sound like some useful features for a car up north or in certain parts of the world?

Just a side note, does a cylinder of hydrogen make a form of instant water?

 

[Darell]

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cobb said:
Wow, heat, water and energy, sounds like a win win situation. Now doesnt that sound like some useful features for a car up north or in certain parts of the world?

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Well, sure. As long as you have several million dollars and don't care what the vehicle or fuel costs, or how far you can drive it, or where you will get your fuel. Or that the PEM will last about 2000 hours total. Sounds GREAT! Oh, and don't forget that you need to keep the exhaust from freezing as well. Block the exhaust once with ICE and you destroy the platinum-coated PEM. Sign me up! If it weren't for the constraints of reality, FCV's would be awesome!

BTW, if heat, water and energy really excite you - all you need to do is keep burning gasoline. Same by-products, plus a host of other components to keep them company.

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Just a side note, does a cylinder of hydrogen make a form of instant water?

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All you need to do is combine the H2 with O2, and presto. Water. If you need water, it would likely be easier to carry around a cylinder of water, however. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

 

[cobb]

Ok, ok. I get it, fuel cells for cars are not the answer, i think.

 

[Darell]

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cobb said:
Ok, ok. I get it, fuel cells for cars are not the answer, i think.

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The folks who DO think it is the answer are the same people that have been "trying" to commercialize it in since the 1960's, the auto makers....and the oil companies. Go figure.

Fuel Cells are great - for some applications. They just aren't the answer for sustainable energy in our private vehicles.

For how many years now have you heard that we'll have fuel cells in our laptops next year? I've personally heard it for the past six years.

 

[Darell]

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cobb said:
Ok, ok. I get it, fuel cells for cars are not the answer, i think.

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Whew! And here I thought I might need an even bigger club.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif

The folks who DO think it is the answer are the same people that have been "trying" to commercialize it in since the 1960's, the auto makers....and the oil companies. Go figure.

Fuel Cells are great - for some applications. They just aren't the answer for sustainable energy in our private vehicles.

For how many years now have you heard that we'll have fuel cells in our laptops next year? I've personally heard it for the past six years.

 

[idleprocess]

If you desperately want a hydrogen-powered car, there's a more practical (and economical) solution - just convert the ICE to burn hydrogen. GM has done it with the H2 - just don't think too much about the 10,000 PSI hydrogen tank comsuming most of the cargo space in the back, and don't drive too far from the hydrogen station...

Tomorrow's fuel, today... I guess... If you live in Iceland, where they insist that cheap geothermal makes sense of out the much-hyped "hydrogen economy."

I'd think a natural gas conversion would make more sense - and is far more economical. At least there's some infrastructure for LNG.

My employer is bragging about the new set of fuel cells they installed at a CO. I think they bought 7 250kW units from UTC that will provide somewhat more than half of the power for the facility (I'd think that 1.75MW would power a CO, but evidently this is a giant CO / office). I hope they didn't count the cost of the fuel cells themselves when calculating how much money they'd save because I think electricity os going to have to hit about $1 / kWH (and stay there) to reach payoff anytime soon. Of course they run off natural gas, so it's not like you're going to skip the carbon emissions. They do generate some additional heat that's allegedly going to be used to heat/cool the facility.

Some Verizon PR about some fuel cell projects. The Garden City project was completed sometime this year, according to all the crowing on the company intranet.
Here's what Google makes of it.

What gives with the URL tags?

 

[cobb]

Want a play fiel cell? http://www.fuelcellstore.com/

 

[Darell]

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cobb said:
Want a play fiel cell? http://www.fuelcellstore.com/

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Indeed! $350 for a model car. Imagine what that same car would cost if it ran on 2xAA NiMH batteries. $8? $10?

 

[idleprocess]

I like the hydrogen grill.

No mention of how you're going to fuel the thing, or even the storage tank.

Maybe you'd have to do something complicated like - connect a electrolysis device to it running from household AC ... then have fun trying to find an outlet that can supply enough current just so you can use that awesome new hydrogen grill.

Ah, novelties...

 

[cobb]

Yeah Darell, but this one you can watch it turn water into gas and back. There is no fun in watching nicad batteries being drained or recharged.

 

[cobb]

homepower had a couple who had solar made hydrogen. They used those plastic barrows to hold hydrogen at 4psi. THey also used it to power a instant gas powered water heater. Both worked, just needed a little tweaking as the flame was lower in the holder and in some cases invisible.

 

[gadget_lover]

Hydrogen is not easy to create cleanly. When I was young (A long time ago) I made hydrogen via hydrolysis. I found that ordinary tap water was not a good source and that you have to be very picky about your electrodes.

I did not get enough pressure from the hydrogen to fill a simple balloon. I did get some clorine gas (according to a friend who was a chemistry major) thanks to the local water purification process. The electrodes lost their efficiency very quickly.

If I had added a pump and used distilled water, I might have had better results. It did not occur to me to find out how much energy was being used to create the little gas that I did manage to generate.

Daniel

 

[Darell]

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cobb said:
Yeah Darell, but this one you can watch it turn water into gas and back. There is no fun in watching nicad batteries being drained or recharged.

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Ah yes. The million dollar "fun" affect, we'll call that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif