Who makes a P60 drop-in w/full power on 2 AA cells???? OTF lumens on some for now.

[bigchelis]

Hi all,
I have a Javelin hosts and I am looking for a P60 drop-in that will deliver full power with just 2 AA cells.

I have a 10.5in Sphere set-up thanks to MrGman and have tested a P60 XP-G R4 by Nailbender, but it went DD on me with 2 AA cells and the results are in the IS Sphere Sticky. I also have an XP-G R5 from Dereelight designed for the Javelin, but I think it will not deliver full power with 2 AA cells, but I will test it and cross my fingers and report.

Enjoy

I purchased a Solarforce .9v~4.2v R2 drop-in and it makes this much on 3 AA Tenergy cells:
190.0 -----1 sec
172.3 -----30 sec
172.3 -----1 min
180.0 -----2 min
184.6 -----3 min
184.6 -----4 min

With just 2 AA cells it made nearly 50% less OTF lumens. I thought it would not matter and I would get full power from .9V~4.2v, but no it doesn't.

97.7 -----1 sec
96.2 -----30 sec
96.2 -----1 min
96.2 -----2 min
95.4 -----3 min
95.4 ---- 4 min

Then I ran it with a single AA Tenergy cell and while it works it is very dim, but delivers constant OTF lumens:

56.2 -----30 sec
56.2 ------1 min
56.2 -------2 min

 

[bigchelis]

Re: Who makes a P60 drop-in w/full power on 2 AA cells????

The Nailbender P60 XP-G low voltage drop-in was suppose to be fully regulated at 1~1.2A at the LED, but it went direct drive.

The results when MrGman tested it with 2 AA Tenergy cells and 3.5~3.8A at the tail are here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=229135

Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______207__turn-on____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______198__30 sec,____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______185__60 sec,____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______169__120 sec,___________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______120__180 sec,___________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,

At 5 minutes of use the cells and the entire hosts get almost too hot to hold in my hands. Yes, it gets that hot. Nailbender since has been succesfull at making them not go DD, but I have not purchased another for me or MrGman to test.

 

[joshconsulting]

You need a better data display system

Still, seeing actual data on any light is awesome. I'm about ready to ship out my DBS, unfortunately my friend with the cooling strips didn't come through. Hopefully I can ship it out monday or tuesday, but there's a lot of details to be worked out.

 

[Yucca Patrol]

Check out the new Dereelight Javelin and the drop-ins available for it.

 

[gswitter]

I assume you're wanting to use NiMH cells?

Most off-the-shelf solutions that are designed for AA's probably won't drive the LED too hard because they'll generally have to support alkalines. You'll probably have to source a driver and make your own drop-in or have someone do it for you. Maybe the GD1000 from the Shoppe? Spec'ed minimum Vin is 1.8V.

There's the RV7 drivers that will put out 800mA on a single NiMH cell, but I don't recall seeing a version optimized for two cells.

 

[bigchelis]

Check out the new Dereelight Javelin and the drop-ins available for it.

I just got one earlier today and just had time to test for real OTF lumens. This seems to be the answer to my original question, but I wasn't sure if full power would be had with just 2 AA cells.

Using my Javeling hosts and 2 Duracell 1500mA NiMH cells I got 2~2.2A at the tail. :devil: I took OTF readings with this set-up and will retake them later on when I top off my NiMH Tenergy cells and add cooper tape to the drop-in. For now here is what I got:

246.9 -------1 sec
226.9 -------30 sec
222.3 -------1 min
220.0 -------2 min
216.9 -------3 min

Jay mentioned with more than 2 AA cells it will go direct drive. I will test it like that too, just to see how high current affects this drop-in. We all saw what happened with the Nailbender when it went direct drive; now lets see what happens with this Dereelight on DD mode.

 

[Kestrel]

I just checked out the flashlight connection site, but it appears as though the drop-in isn't available separately? Any suggestions? (I've been trying to wait for the XP-G version of the Malkoff M30 for a 2xAA P60 drop-in but looking at your data this sounds like a pretty good unit.)

Edit: Their XP-G drop-ins are here, looks like the 3.7v drop-in is what we're talking about for this host. Like the OP, I also would like a drop-in dedicated for 2.4v for max output on 2xAA though...

 

[Paul_in_Maryland]

(I've been trying to wait for the XP-G version of the Malkoff M30 for a 2xAA P60 drop-in but looking at your data this sounds like a pretty good unit.)

Malkoff will probably offer warm tints.

 

[qtaco]

Thanks a lot for taking these readings bigchelis, very interesting stuff as I also have a Javelin with the Dereelight XPG drop-in (3 mode). It looks like Dereelight really delivered a great drop-in for 2xAA batteries!

 

[bigchelis]

I just checked out the flashlight connection site, but it appears as though the drop-in isn't available separately? Any suggestions? (I've been trying to wait for the XP-G version of the Malkoff M30 for a 2xAA P60 drop-in but looking at your data this sounds like a pretty good unit.)

Edit: Their XP-G drop-ins are here, looks like the 3.7v drop-in is what we're talking about for this host. Like the OP, I also would like a drop-in dedicated for 2.4v for max output on 2xAA though...

I pm Jay for the drop-in and I am not sure if its on his website, but he does have them in stock

The drop-in I got says this on the label:
3SD XP-G R5
Input: 0.9~4.2V
Jay said at 4.2V it goes direct drive, so what I just did was test it with 3 NiMH AA Duracel 1500mA cells at 1.25v each. This means I should be about 4v input and below the DD mode, which I just checked and my tailcap current was 1.45A I saw my current was what I expected and proceded to do my OTF readings and got this:

283.8 -----1 sec
263.8 -----30 sec
259.2 - ----1min
253.8 -----2 min
251.5 -----3 min

Now, I have to test it with AA Alkalines and with a single IMR 18650 in a 6P hosts, but at least I found what I was looking for or almost. What I wanted was 280 plus OTF with 2 AA cells in a P60 drop-in, but this Dereelight is almost there and I am definitely happy.

bigC

 

[Justin Case]

Re: Who makes a P60 drop-in w/full power on 2 AA cells????

The Nailbender P60 XP-G low voltage drop-in was suppose to be fully regulated at 1~1.2A at the LED, but it went direct drive.

The results when MrGman tested it with 2 AA Tenergy cells and 3.5~3.8A at the tail are here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=229135

Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______207__turn-on____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______198__30 sec,____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______185__60 sec,____________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______169__120 sec,___________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,
Nailbender XP-G_R4 DD,______120__180 sec,___________2AA Tenergy NiMH_____Dereelight Javelin 2AA size Host,

At 5 minutes of use the cells and the entire hosts get almost too hot to hold in my hands. Yes, it gets that hot. Nailbender since has been succesfull at making them not go DD, but I have not purchased another for me or MrGman to test.

Why would what I assume is a boost driver go DD when Vbatt < Vf? How did you verify that the driver went direct drive?

 

[Justin Case]

I pm Jay for the drop-in and I am not sure if its on his website, but he does have them in stock

The drop-in I got says this on the label:
3SD XP-G R5
Input: 0.9~4.2V
Jay said at 4.2V it goes direct drive, so what I just did was test it with 3 NiMH AA Duracel 1500mA cells at 1.25v each. This means I should be about 4v input and below the DD mode, which I just checked and my tailcap current was 1.45A I saw my current was what I expected and proceded to do my OTF readings and got this:

283.8 -----1 sec
263.8 -----30 sec
259.2 - ----1min
253.8 -----2 min
251.5 -----3 min

Now, I have to test it with AA Alkalines and with a single IMR 18650 in a 6P hosts, but at least I found what I was looking for or almost. What I wanted was 280 plus OTF with 2 AA cells in a P60 drop-in, but this Dereelight is almost there and I am definitely happy.

bigC

Again, if this is a boost driver, why wouldn't it be in direct drive at Vbatt~3.75V, when undoubtedly an XP-G at 1000mA should have a Vf of around 3.3V? Vbatt > Vf after all.

 

[bigchelis]

Re: Who makes a P60 drop-in w/full power on 2 AA cells????

Why would what I assume is a boost driver go DD when Vbatt < Vf? How did you verify that the driver went direct drive?

I don't know. I told Nailbender how I kept getting 3.5A plus at the tail and he replied that some of his low voltage drop-ins he saw go DD. So, I really don't know.

Also,
Jay informed me at 4.2V it goes DD untill the voltage drops it goes back into regualtion. Im just the messenger

 

[Justin Case]

I assume you're wanting to use NiMH cells?

Most off-the-shelf solutions that are designed for AA's probably won't drive the LED too hard because they'll generally have to support alkalines. You'll probably have to source a driver and make your own drop-in or have someone do it for you. Maybe the GD1000 from the Shoppe? Spec'ed minimum Vin is 1.8V.

There's the RV7 drivers that will put out 800mA on a single NiMH cell, but I don't recall seeing a version optimized for two cells.

The GD1000 uses a TPS63000 boost-buck converter IC. The 1.8V spec is the min input voltage spec for the IC. It isn't a spec for the min input voltage to run in full regulation and deliver 1000mA drive current. I've used a GD1000 to run a 4P MC-E, with Vf~3.0V at 1000mA drive. At 1.8V input, it is clearly not running in full regulation. It runs best with at least 2xAA NiMH. However, the TPS61030-based Badboy Nexgen is a more efficient driver if you are strictly interested in boost mode for 2xAA NiMH.

If you underdrive the LED, for example using a BBNG400 or 500, then you can use AA alkalines or NiMH. I'm using a BBNG400 to run a AA Mini Maglite mod driving a Seoul P4 and it runs great with alkalines.

 

[Justin Case]

Re: Who makes a P60 drop-in w/full power on 2 AA cells????

I don't know. I told Nailbender how I kept getting 3.5A plus at the tail and he replied that some of his low voltage drop-ins he saw go DD. So, I really don't know.

Also,
Jay informed me at 4.2V it goes DD untill the voltage drops it goes back into regualtion. Im just the messenger

Doesn't make sense to me. If you are in DD and are drawing 3.5A at the tail, then you are sending 3.5A to the LED. Direct drive, right? To get to that magnitude of forward current for an XP-G would take a lot more voltage than nominally 2.4V from 2xAA.

Same with claiming that under 4.2V is the fallback point for DD back to regulation. If it's a constant current boost driver, then when Vbatt>Vf, the driver is in DD. It is highly doubtful that an XP-G Vf at 1A drive is as high as 4.2V. I've measured mine (granted, statistics of small numbers) at more like 3.2V. If it is boost-buck, then at 4.2V, it still ought to be in regulation (running in buck).

 

[gswitter]

The GD1000 uses a TPS63000 boost-buck converter IC. The 1.8V spec is the min input voltage spec for the IC. It isn't a spec for the min input voltage to run in full regulation and deliver 1000mA drive current. I've used a GD1000 to run a 4P MC-E, with Vf~3.0V at 1000mA drive. At 1.8V input, it is clearly not running in full regulation. It runs best with at least 2xAA NiMH. However, the TPS61030-based Badboy Nexgen is a more efficient driver if you are strictly interested in boost mode for 2xAA NiMH.

I assumed BigC was looking for a regulated 1A or more. I didn't expect the GD would be able to provide that from the minimum Vin. But with the spec'ed minimum of 1.8V, I suspected it might be able to provide 1A with a Vin of 2.4V. Sounds like you've managed to do that.

Can the BBNG1000 run on 2.4V? I thought the higher current BBNG's required 3V or more?

 

[Justin Case]

For a low Vf LED like an XP-G, the BBNG should be able to deliver 1000mA drive using 2xAA NiMH. The softstart switch current limit is 1.6A (40% of the nominal value). Assuming 90% driver efficiency and an XP-G Vf of about 3.2V at 1000mA drive, we get

0.9 * 2.4V * Ibatt = 3.2V * 1A

Thus, Ibatt~1.5A, which is less than the switch current limit. Once the output voltage is reached, the switch current limit is set to 100%, or 4A.

The hassle for a P60 drop-in is that the GD and BBNG drivers are 14mm diameter. Thus, you need to devise a way to mount them in the usual 17mm driver cavity of the typical P60 drop-in.

 

[FlashCrazy]

Thanks for posting the number on the Javelin pill, bigchelis!
You mentioned you used three Duracell NiMH's at 1.25V each... I'm hoping you're saying that they would be ~1.25V each under load (in use), and not that they measured 1.25V each resting.

Above 4.2V, the Javelin pill goes out of the regulation "capture" point and will overdrive the LED. The amount of overdrive will depend on the LED's Vf. The 3S isn't too bad in this regard, as the driver's MCU will still cap the current so to speak. The 1S (single output version) will not limit the current at all above 4.2V input (under load), and serious overdriving can result... again, depending on the LED's Vf. The voltage we're talking about is the batteries' voltage under load... in the case of NiMH's this will be about 1.2-1.25V per cell, alkalines will be a bit less, about 1.1V per cell or potentially less (since the circuit is placing a high 1 amp load on the batteries). Within a few minutes, the alkalines would probably sag to about 1.0V per cell. NiMH batteries will result in the best performance over the runtime. I'm sure you already know most of this info, I'm just posting for other people's benefit. Thanks again for the testing!

With 2 x AA's the current to the LED is regulated at 1.0 amp... this is about the maximum you're going to see any company driving the LED with 2 x AA.

I'm out of stock of the Javelin pills at the moment, should have more early next week.

 

[bigchelis]

Thanks for posting the number on the Javelin pill, bigchelis!
You mentioned you used three Duracell NiMH's at 1.25V each... I'm hoping you're saying that they would be ~1.25V each under load (in use), and not that they measured 1.25V each resting.

Above 4.2V, the Javelin pill goes out of the regulation "capture" point and will overdrive the LED. The amount of overdrive will depend on the LED's Vf. The 3S isn't too bad in this regard, as the driver's MCU will still cap the current so to speak. The 1S (single output version) will not limit the current at all above 4.2V input (under load), and serious overdriving can result... again, depending on the LED's Vf. The voltage we're talking about is the batteries' voltage under load... in the case of NiMH's this will be about 1.2-1.25V per cell, alkalines will be a bit less, about 1.1V per cell or potentially less (since the circuit is placing a high 1 amp load on the batteries). Within a few minutes, the alkalines would probably sag to about 1.0V per cell. NiMH batteries will result in the best performance over the runtime. I'm sure you already know most of this info, I'm just posting for other people's benefit. Thanks again for the testing!

With 2 x AA's the current to the LED is regulated at 1.0 amp... this is about the maximum you're going to see any company driving the LED with 2 x AA.

I'm out of stock of the Javelin pills at the moment, should have more early next week.

Thanks for your input....

I will test the Dereelight drop-in with a single IMR 18650 at 4.21v and then publish my results.


bigC

 

[Justin Case]

Thanks for your input....

I will test the Dereelight drop-in with a single IMR 18650 at 4.21v and then publish my results.


bigC

Put the drop-in on a bench power supply to help determine when the constant current driver goes in and out of regulation.

The Dereelight description still doesn't make sense to me. Is it a boost-buck driver, not just a boost? That still doesn't make complete sense since if you run a buck driver above its max input voltage, usually you just fry the driver, not switch over to direct drive.

If it is a constant current boost driver, then it will go into direct drive when Vin > Vf. I seriously doubt that Vf ~4.2V at 1A for an XP-G.

If it is not a constant current boost driver, but a voltage controlled boost driver with the output voltage fixed at 4.2V, then it is true that the driver isn't technically in direct drive at 4.2V. But that sort of driver design is suboptimal IMO. If the driver really is regulated at 1A, however, I'm not sure how it could then be a voltage controlled boost driver. The 1A constant output current has to be paired with a matching output voltage. Thus, at 1A out, the output voltage is the XP-G's Vf at 1A, which is given as 3.3V in the Cree datasheet. That's not 4.2V. At 4.2V, the forward current to an XP-G is going to be way high.

Is the 1A simply the driver's output when Vin ~2.4V is delivered? The Malkoff M30 boost driver, for example, seems to work that way. See this graph, for example, which is for the boost IC used by the M30:

The problem I see is that if Vout is fixed at 4.2V, then the output current becomes whatever is dictated by the LED's Vf/If curve combined with the boost IC's capabilities, up to the switch current limit of the driver's boost IC. Thus, you can easily overdrive your XP-G if you feed it 1xIMR18650 for example. Such a cell can easily hold 3.8V-3.9V for an extended period under load. An XP-G at 3.8V-3.9V input most likely would see a drive current well over 2.5A, if the boost IC can deliver such currents.

My guess is that if this driver is set up as a voltage controlled boost driver with a fixed output voltage of 4.2V, then the max drive current will depend on the max switch current limit of whatever boost IC is used. Thus higher and higher input voltages will result in higher and higher drive currents up to the switch current max. If that's the case, IMO it's not that great of an idea to push components to their operational limits, and to depend on those limits as the method to regulate output current to some max value.

Some additional clarity on how the driver works would help, since the above is guesswork.