Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

Patriot

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Actually, as output increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime. A Polarion Helios PH40 cranks out 4150 lumens for a full hour and 20 minutes in regulation. Show me a portable LED light which can do the same. These superpowerful LEDs need in excess of 9Amps to achieve something even 50% close of that output, but try doing that with a portable battery pack plus a portable cryogenic station in order to keep it cool... Just not happening.


A big +1 to this as I thought this was the best post in the thread so far. (bold emphasis mine)



Even given the unlikely example in OF's post, LED has a better chance of successfully matching the efficiency and output in the future than it ever has of matching the throw performance of HID. While throw performance is related directly to surface brightness, the topic of this thread is "output" which I generically take to mean overall lumens produced. If they can overcome the heat issue, overall lumen output will eventually become possible. On the surface, this obstacle may sound like a simple matter of time and development but it's actually a fairly large gap to overcome. The materials for example aren't going to change than much in the next decade. LED light makers are still stuck with the typical aluminum, copper, brass, ti, SS, ect. The LED dies themselves are also somewhat fixed with the patterns and materials we currently have, so unless new materials are developed that can handle twice the heat in half the space it will remain a barrier. Active or some other means of hyper cooling seems to be the only hope for the near future.

To match the throw of a current 14W HID it would roughly take a die size one half the surface area of the XP-E while producing more than twice the output, resulting in much higher surface brightness. To use OF's phrase, "it's just not happening" now or anytime soon, especially considering the rate of LED advancement we've seen over the last 2 years. They've made advancements but nothing close to what would be required to close the gap. I'm speculating that at some point LED's will undergo some revolution or a completely new technology will emerge.
 

glockboy

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In three years, there will be no Led, no HID, only candles.:candle:
Don't you read about "2012 doomsday"?:huh:
 

js-lots

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in 10 years im sure there will be a single AA 'primary' light that can do 5000 lumens for 2 hours.

and in 20 year we will all have double that output fitted to our foreheads at birth, and run it of our own bodies naturally generated electricity.

20 years after that the sun will implode and flashlights is all there will be for light and warmth.

stock up :D

In 20 years I will probably still be on this stinkin website looking for the next best Led.:naughty:
 

Juggernaut

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Eventually, LEDs will reach insane lumen/watt ratio, and be able to actually take alot of current, which will give it the ability to outdo HID. If not led, then some other radical technology will do to LEDs what LEDs did to incans.

What? Create an even worse CRI:eek::crackup:!

Sorry I'm just joking, I have nothing against LEDs:p.
 

Crenshaw

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What? Create an even worse CRI:eek::crackup:!

Sorry I'm just joking, I have nothing against LEDs:p.

lol, i didnt think of that. maybe thats aqua green Electro Lumiscence will suddenly jump to 2000lumens/amp. what then?

lol, but im never throwing out my Mag85.

Crenshaw
 

saabluster

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Actually, as output increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime.
I agree with Patriot. This is the best post here. To make me laugh. I think what you meant to say was "as size and weight increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime." Seriously. That PH40 is almost four pounds! How many LED flashlights of equal size and weight can you point me to? Why then are you comparing that to LEDs? All the pessimists here will laugh at what they thought and wrote on this day come a few years from now. If you guys only knew.:shakehead :kiss:
 

Outdoors Fanatic

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I agree with Patriot. This is the best post here. To make me laugh. I think what you meant to say was "as size and weight increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime." Seriously. That PH40 is almost four pounds! How many LED flashlights of equal size and weight can you point me to? Why then are you comparing that to LEDs? All the pessimists here will laugh at what they thought and wrote on this day come a few years from now. If you guys only knew.:shakehead :kiss:
Have you seen the size and weight of the current LED lights cranking out 1500+ lumens? Have your seen the Howitzer or the Kong? Compared to that, the Helios is a keychain light-- but with much better runtime and cooler operational temperature to boot! Now that is something to laugh about...
 

saabluster

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Have you seen the size and weight of the current LED lights cranking out 1500+ lumens? Have your seen the Howitzer or the Kong? Compared to that, the Helios is a keychain light-- but with much better runtime and cooler operational temperature to boot! Now that is something to laugh about...
OK thats two. But one is downright cartoonish and the other built with a much tighter cost constraint than the $2.2k Polarion. Sorry but this is not a fair fight. You must trust that if I posted what I did it was not a guess.
 

jtr1962

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The LED dies themselves are also somewhat fixed with the patterns and materials we currently have, so unless new materials are developed that can handle twice the heat in half the space it will remain a barrier. Active or some other means of hyper cooling seems to be the only hope for the near future.
Actually, heat becomes less and less of an issue as we continue to get efficiency up. The first power LEDs converted something like 5% of their power to light. The rest came out as heat. Now we're around 30% light, 70% heat. The Cree XP-G will get us to about 40% light, 60% heat. Not only is the amount of heat produced for any given power input going down, but the amount of heat to produce a given number of lumens is going down even faster.

Say you want 1000 lumens. Back in the days of 18 lumen Luxeons you would have needed maybe 60 watts, and would have had to deal with 57 watts of heat (note: 1000 lumens = roughly 3 watts of light energy given typical LED spectra). Prior to when the XR-E came out the best LEDs were about twice as efficient as the aforementioned Luxeon. So now you needed 30 watts for 1000 lumens, but your waste heat dropped for 57 to 27 watts. Now the Cree XR-E comes out. You can do 1000 lumens with 15 watts and 12 watts waste heat. Notice how power usage dropped by a factor of four from our initial calculation but waste heat dropped by nearly a factor of five. And we're not done yet. Your R2 bin XR-E will do the 1000 lumens with 9.5 watts and 6.5 watts of waste heat. The new XP-G will do the same with about 7.7 watts and only 4.7 watts of waste heat. Look especially at this last case. Efficiency only jumped about 24% (from 105 to 130 lm/W), yet waste heat dropped by 39%. Oh, and all of these calculations are based on efficiency at 350 mA. And of course you'll need multiple emitters to get 1000 lumens, even today.

In short waste heat is gradually trending towards zero. It may never get there, but at some point the batteries won't be able to drive the LED hard enough to produce enough waste heat to stress the thermal path. Let's say that a given AA emitter/torch body combo effectively deals with 3 watts of heat. In the early days that essentially meant that you couldn't drive the LED much harder than 3 watts (almost all of the input power left as heat). Now with the Cree XP-G we need to drive the LED to about 5 watts to get the same 3 watts of waste heat. And if we ever reach 80% conversion efficiency (I think we will by 2020), then you'll need to drive the LED to 15 watts to reach the limits of your thermal path. Lots of luck finding a AA cell which can do that. And if you do, it'll do it for a few minutes at best. Even 5 watts per cell is pushing things. In short, the time will come where our lights will run cool simply because the cells we use can't push them hard enough for long enough. Chemical cells may improve, but it's difficult imagining them improving by a factor of 3 or 5 in energy density and current capability.
 

LuxLuthor

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OK thats two. But one is downright cartoonish and the other built with a much tighter cost constraint than the $2.2k Polarion. Sorry but this is not a fair fight. You must trust that if I posted what I did it was not a guess.

As one of your biggest fans, if you know about something with such certainty to say that, why not share what it is?

I'm sure you know a lot about cutting edge LED info....but nothing wrong with letting us use the old "trust but verify" axiom. Until something has arrived as a new technology/development, and is proven viable, it makes more sense to be skeptical.

While there is no question that technology can blow away many seeming limitations, there are often many well intended speculations that are not examined down to the smallest details and assumptions.
 

AusKipper

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Lots of luck finding a AA cell which can do that. And if you do, it'll do it for a few minutes at best. Even 5 watts per cell is pushing things. In short, the time will come where our lights will run cool simply because the cells we use can't push them hard enough for long enough. Chemical cells may improve, but it's difficult imagining them improving by a factor of 3 or 5 in energy density and current capability.

Flywheels or capacitors ;) (yes yes, i know, capacitors have low energy density..)

What will I do with a 5000lm EDC light with a spot of 5,000 lux at 1m.....
 

The Dane

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Is it technologically even possible?


They are!

As of now take a 10W HID and a 10W LED = LED wins
And things only gets worse for the HID when power diminishes.

Because you did not state what way then my answer is correct:whistle:
 

recDNA

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Flywheels or capacitors ;) (yes yes, i know, capacitors have low energy density..)

What will I do with a 5000lm EDC light with a spot of 5,000 lux at 1m.....

Sounds like a great flashlight for a boat. When on land use low or blind attackers.
 
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