Would you like an upgraded M61HOT head?

[QMT93]

Hi,

Honest question: Would you like an M61HOT as follows, or do you think the current M61HOT is enough?

Lumens: 1,350
Candela: 54,000
Battery: 18650, 21700, NO CR123

Assuming the current M61HOT head remains available, would you buy the proposed model? Why or why not?

I don't know how to create a poll in this thread, so I'll count the comments.

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[Dave D]

The M61HOT has been upgraded from the original spec and now outputs 740 lumens with 20,000 lux. Which is now on par with the M91T.

The M61HOT will operate between 3.4 - 6v so it will operate on 18650, 21700 and CR123's.

I think that the difficulty with having it produce 1,350 lumens would be heat management for such a small head. Malkoff don't power down their lights as the heat increases, which is a good thing, so dissipating the heat produced may not be possible.

Compare the headsizes of the Wildcat and the Hounddog Super, for example, that are designed for more lumens.

 

[desert.snake]

The M61HOT has been upgraded from the original spec and now outputs 740 lumens with 20,000 lux. Which is now on par with the M91T.

The M61HOT will operate between 3.4 - 6v so it will operate on 18650, 21700 and CR123's.

I think that the difficulty with having it produce 1,350 lumens would be heat management for such a small head. Malkoff don't power down their lights as the heat increases, which is a good thing, so dissipating the heat produced may not be possible.

Compare the headsizes of the Wildcat and the Hounddog Super, for example, that are designed for more lumens.

Only if Gene made the head of copper, and the copus of the dropin itself is also made of copper, or rather, the dropin itself is made part of the head.

But in the end it will still overheat without driver protecting the diode from overheating.

 

[QMT93]

I see. I was curious because the Modlite PLHv2 achieves such specs(, and maintains it?) in a body about the same as the MD2. What do you think?

 

[Olumin]

I see. I was curious because the Modlite PLHv2 achieves such specs(, and maintains it?) in a body about the same as the MD2. What do you think?

This was discussed here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Modlite-PLHc2-for-EDC/10-514062/?fvx=1

 

[yazkaz]

Only if Gene made the head of copper, and the copus of the dropin itself is also made of copper, or rather, the dropin itself is made part of the head.

View attachment 15438

But in the end it will still overheat without driver protecting the diode from overheating.

What are the technical specs of the module in question? What LED, driver current etc.?
AFAIK most modern drivers have thermal protection circuits to mitigate LED overheating, as well as battery overdraining.

IMHO 1350lm output on a small flashlight body setup is way too overkill, esp. due to limitation with effective heatsinking. In this case I suspect the (boost) driver may be set at around 1.5A or even higher

 

[desert.snake]

1350 lumens not much, if use the most efficient LED, then this is quite achievable. XML3, XHP50.2 and XHP50.3HI are fine

https://cree-led.com/media/documents/data-sheet-XM-L3.pdf

https://cree-led.com/media/documents/ds-XHP502.pdf

https://cree-led.com/media/documents/ds-XHP50-3.pdf

 

[etc]

The problem would be runtime.

I think 21700 is going to make a positive dent in the runtime situation.

I think the only way M61HOT might be viable is if it uses dual modes, say a low of 30 lumens or such and a high of 1000+ lumens.

Have a feeling that with 1300 or whatever lumens, its runtime will be short even with the greater 21mm cell.

 

[yazkaz]

The problem would be runtime.
I think 21700 is going to make a positive dent in the runtime situation.
I think the only way M61HOT might be viable is if it uses dual modes, say a low of 30 lumens or such and a high of 1000+ lumens.
Have a feeling that with 1300 or whatever lumens, its runtime will be short even with the greater 21mm cell.

The crucial thing would be to NOT let the LED drive beyond its specs, however efficient it is. So it depends on the driver's current. If the 1300+lm is being achieved by driving at 2-3A then it's a NO-NO for a small handheld light setup due to insufficient heatsinking (ie. the whole light can get very warm within a short time).

IMO maintaining the drive current at 1.5-2A would be good enough. Besides, you don't really need 1300+lm on a small light setup; around (or within) 1000lm would be appropriate.

BTW, I've been told multimode drivers may not be as efficient as single-mode ones. And in the case of the M61HOT, a maximum of L/M/H modes would be more than sufficient.

 

[etc]

I think 1000 lumens for 3 hours is more impressive than 3000 lumens for 15 minutes. Well, you get the idea. There is no way to increase lumens without decreasing runtime.

I only exceed 1000 lumens on devices with multiple cells, such as Hound Dogs. Super and all. This way my runtime is OK but also the current is lower, mAh. I was able to decrease the current on the HD Super by using 3 cells instead of 2, and extending the runtime while at it.

My M91T for example is 800 lumens or in its ballpark, and I like the runtime on 2x18650. Anything above 1000 lumens on single cell will be well below 1 hour mark.
Maybe high, instant lumens are more important to some people.

Edit: 18650 Hound Dog is a niche product since it hits about 1000 lumens on one cell initialy but gradually declines. It does not pack the consistent lumens of its big brothers. But, there is a huge advantage to that: It doesn't suddenly quit. Thus you can use unprotected cells in it.

 

[yazkaz]

I think 1000 lumens for 3 hours is more impressive than 3000 lumens for 15 minutes. Well, you get the idea. There is no way to increase lumens without decreasing runtime.

I only exceed 1000 lumens on devices with multiple cells, such as Hound Dogs. Super and all. This way my runtime is OK but also the current is lower, mAh. I was able to decrease the current on the HD Super by using 3 cells instead of 2, and extending the runtime while at it.

My M91T for example is 800 lumens or in its ballpark, and I like the runtime on 2x18650. Anything above 1000 lumens on single cell will be well below 1 hour mark.
Maybe high, instant lumens are more important to some people.

Edit: 18650 Hound Dog is a niche product since it hits about 1000 lumens on one cell initialy but gradually declines. It does not pack the consistent lumens of its big brothers. But, there is a huge advantage to that: It doesn't suddenly quit. Thus you can use unprotected cells in it.

Instant lumens are usually for showoff purposes in a very unrealistic way. However, there are indeed times when more output is to be considered over runtime. In my case for example, on MagAA LED mod setups I only use 1A drivers and nothing else. Due to weak eyesight I'd rather have it pack more good output when I need it, rather than having longer but weaker output that won't do me much justice esp. for night use.

And for anything with 1000+lm output and ~2A driver current, it's always a two-cell setup and 2x18650 config is my golden standard.

 

[etc]

My second favorite light (after M61T) is M91T. I run it with a 2x18650 body, latest-greatest chemistry and get, I think, close to 4 hour runtime. It's dimmer than the Hound Dog but not substantially. And it's pocketable, unlike the Hound Dog.
I can use 4x123 if I want to, and I can also use the low mode to save runtime, both of which are a great response to an emergency.
the only way one of these "HOT" modules would make sense, at 1,350 lumens is if it also had a low mode of say 30 lumens, which would be my primary mode with the high mode being the emergency mode, the exception.

I like 800 lumens for 4 hours a lot better.

 

[QMT93]

This was discussed here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Modlite-PLHc2-for-EDC/10-514062/?fvx=1

Thanks for the article! Someone there stated full output, but it gets really hot after 20 continuous minutes, while someone else stated it's impossible to achieve such results. Thus, there was no conclusion so far.

 

[dotCPF]

Thanks for the article! Someone there stated full output, but it gets really hot after 20 continuous minutes, while someone else stated it's impossible to achieve such results. Thus, there was no conclusion so far.

Modlite uses measurements of lumens at the emitter, not OTF like Malkoff. Further, they state the theoretical max that they get on paper adding up all their current draw, voltage, driver... and so on just like most other companies as Acebeam or Olight. All of those new hot WMLs are Osram "W1 and W2" NM1 and PM1, which have a respective listed max of 700 and 1400 lumens, in perfect conditions on paper. IRL, the W1 gets around 600-680 max and the W2 I've only ever seen hit just over 1000lm on my personal examples (3.5" Texas Ace tube)

NOT what you get with Malkoff!

 

[dotCPF]

OH, BTW, a new 61/91T are on the way as well has the HOT I believe too. Should be interesting!

 

[etc]

How do you know?

 

[thermal guy]

OH, BTW, a new 61/91T are on the way as well has the HOT I believe too. Should be interesting!

Oh boy! Oh boy!!!!

 

[dotCPF]

Gene and I touched on the subject of updating the M61HOT and M91T. He would be happy to do a run for us if we provided the emitters, but he said that everything is getting the updates we have already seen roll into the E2XT and Hound Dog XT heads. For this reason, I am not keen on running a GB on it, but it's taken a bit longer than I though it would too though I bet we aren't long for a new batch of updated product!

 

[QMT93]

Modlite uses measurements of lumens at the emitter, not OTF like Malkoff. Further, they state the theoretical max that they get on paper adding up all their current draw, voltage, driver... and so on just like most other companies as Acebeam or Olight. All of those new hot WMLs are Osram "W1 and W2" NM1 and PM1, which have a respective listed max of 700 and 1400 lumens, in perfect conditions on paper. IRL, the W1 gets around 600-680 max and the W2 I've only ever seen hit just over 1000lm on my personal examples (3.5" Texas Ace tube)

NOT what you get with Malkoff!

I see. That makes sense. Thanks! If I recall correctly, there needs to be four times the lumens for the light to be twice as bright. Does this mean anything less than that would be less noticeable, if at all?

 

[QMT93]

Modlite uses measurements of lumens at the emitter, not OTF like Malkoff. Further, they state the theoretical max that they get on paper adding up all their current draw, voltage, driver... and so on just like most other companies as Acebeam or Olight. All of those new hot WMLs are Osram "W1 and W2" NM1 and PM1, which have a respective listed max of 700 and 1400 lumens, in perfect conditions on paper. IRL, the W1 gets around 600-680 max and the W2 I've only ever seen hit just over 1000lm on my personal examples (3.5" Texas Ace tube)

NOT what you get with Malkoff!

Does the rule "4 times the lumens to appear twice as bright" apply to candela as well?