WOW I did not know alki cells were THAT bad!

[Nano-Oil.com]

A set of "heavy duty" will go years in a remote. Lithium and alkaline AAs are about the same capacitor at drain levels of clocks, remotes, etc.

Lithiums are good for high draw stuff, or extremely low load stuff where battery life is limited by the shelf life of regular alkalines.

the true shelf like of a good alkaline cell is much more then 5 years,

When we find flashlight still in packages from 1998 , I run for my voltmeter and take a reading, just about all of them still have 1.6v in them we are now almost in 2014 I always go WOW!

In 1998 we receive a purchase order an opening order of 40,000 2x5mm LED flashlights from the C.Crane Company, each flashlights hosted 3 AA alkaline, so we went from buying batteries from Costco to actually sourcing the best we could find Made in America, of course at that level of buying pennies count but we there were no way we could have compromised on quality since the warranty on those flashlights carries a life time.

Shortly before the PO came in,I had the great pleasure to meet an official from the world player in synthetic graphite manufacturer in Switzerland who knew who is who in the world of energy storage,
He connected us with a company in Canada who just was taken over by its employees after Duracell closed shop.
We ended up with Duracell quality AA alkaline delivered to us in shipments of 20,000 cells per week at the cost of US$ 0.09 LANDED IN PETALUMA (meaning shipping cost included).

The point of my telling you this little point in history is record and statistics which holds true to batteries from any manufacturer.
the alkaline batteries that you see someday in your device that have leaked and corroded your electronic or what have you were actually defective from the day they were born in at the factory.
Mostly it has to do with the insulator ring that is on the negative - end on Alkalines
some of them are already faulty from any factories and it is a known fact to them, it is a rather low percentage but it is an acceptable rate to them.
I came to know those facts when I called the factory to investigate since we were now sensitive to potential returns in big numbers due to faulty $ 0.009 batteries on devices sold for $ 32.00 a piece, the math is easy.

so part of our Quality Control QC was to inspect the negative side of batteries before insertion into the flashlights,
that was a fairly easy task,
1-take a box of AA bulk
2-invert it upside down and open with a razor blade the what was the bottom of the box.
3-put a sheet of paper over to cover all negative end of batteries.
4-apply force using silicone pad 1/4 inch on a press and walk away
5- come back 30 minutes later and read the page
6- use a magnet to remove the bad ones replacing it with a known good one each time else things can go crazy.

I even found some with no rings at all, needless to say they contained NO CHARGE AT ALL

Have you noticed that the corrosion is always on the negative side on alkaline.

I am grateful for this thread as it brings some very fond memories.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

I only buy decent Alkies never the cheap ones and as i say never ever had a problem in over 40 years.Shelf queen lights i never use alkies but edc i have no problem using.

I've had Rayovac, Energizer and Duracell alkalines leak on me in devices causing damage to things. The generics don't seem to fare any better or worse in it all. I've found AA and AAA are the worse offenders while C and D cells tend to leak a lot less often on me.

 

[AnthonyMcEwen2014]

Wow those graphics surpised me!

I knew flat meant horizontal not straight, I just assumed it went alkalines were worst (least flat then NiMH then lipo, but clearly I was wrong)

Wonder why I got that impression, I often see a selling point of lithuam powered lights as that they matain full power right till the end of the battery life, but clearly NiMH is good at that too!!

It must be something else at play as I have never seen it as a selling point on NiMH (maby I wasent looking harder enuf) is it something else or do lithuam powered lights only stay bright till the end because of regulation (but that cant be right as otherwise alkilined would be able to achive the same when regulated???)(which I guess they can to a degree just not as well as other chemistry,s)

So if NiMH batterys could have the capacity and light weight of lithiuam along WTH the fast charge and discharge charactistics would that mean everyone would want nimhs over lithiuam????

Goh I thought I knew a lot about lithuam but clearly k know nothing!!!!

I'm such a noob at this!!!

 

[reppans]

Alkaline will outrun lithium primaries in a low enough drain application, you just have to be mindful for leaks over that very long period..

+1. An alkaline beats the L91 by about 25%/100 hrs. in the moonlight mode runtime test on the 47's runtime testimonial thread. Also, while any alkaline is subject to leaking, the greatest risk is when the cells are used in series and the first cell to die gets reversed charged by the other(s).

 

[reppans]

Wow those graphics surpised me!

I knew flat meant horizontal not straight, I just assumed it went alkalines were worst (least flat then NiMH then lipo, but clearly I was wrong)

Wonder why I got that impression, I often see a selling point of lithuam powered lights as that they matain full power right till the end of the battery life, but clearly NiMH is good at that too!!

It must be something else at play as I have never seen it as a selling point on NiMH (maby I wasent looking harder enuf) is it something else or do lithuam powered lights only stay bright till the end because of regulation (but that cant be right as otherwise alkilined would be able to achive the same when regulated???)(which I guess they can to a degree just not as well as other chemistry,s)

So if NiMH batterys could have the capacity and light weight of lithiuam along WTH the fast charge and discharge charactistics would that mean everyone would want nimhs over lithiuam????

Goh I thought I knew a lot about lithuam but clearly k know nothing!!!!

I'm such a noob at this!!!

I think you guys are speaking different languages.

When Anthony says "flat" I'm pretty sure he means lumen output, and yes the Li-ion will have a much flatter lumen output on max than NiMhs will. The guys here showing you battery discharge curves are technically correct that, NiMh V discharges flatter than Li-ion V, but that is irrelevant for a lumen output/runtime graph.

(Well, I don't claim to be an expert but this is my understanding)

The reason is that, although the Li-ion battery voltage is dropping on a linear basis, it is still always going to be above (needs a buck driver if anything) the minimum forward voltage required by the emitter, and therefore be able to power the emitter at max until it trips the battery protection circuit. 1-2 x NiMh, on the other hand, requires a boost driver to bring the voltage up to the emitter's minimum operating level (3 something volts), by drawing more current from the cells. As the NiMh's runs low, voltage sags and the cells are unable to provide the increasing amount of current to compensate, then the max output will necessarily drop.

This is definitely what you will see with a 1-2xAA vs 1xLi-ion light (like a Quark). Not quite sure what happens with 3-4xAA lights as I don't know any that will support both chemistries.

 

[Bright+]

You must be very lucky as I have had two surveys about alkaline leakage and most people have had leaks and too many of them have tried their best to limit using them altogether.

Correlating the poll results here to general population here is like correlating the result from a cluster of samples from psych 101 class as if it applies to the world.

I think you guys are speaking different languages.

When Anthony says "flat" I'm pretty sure he means lumen output, and yes the Li-ion will have a much flatter lumen output on max than NiMhs will. The guys here showing you battery discharge curves are technically correct that, NiMh V discharges flatter than Li-ion V, but that is irrelevant for a lumen output/runtime graph.

What are you talking about? "on max" is completely arbitrary.
Switching back and forth between 3 x 2400mAh as three AA in series versus 1 x 2400mAh 16500 into the same regulator, you're claiming that it switches between flatter lumen regulation Li-Ion mode and steeper change NiMH mode?

 

[reppans]

What are you talking about? "on max" is completely arbitrary.
Switching back and forth between 3 x 2400mAh as three AA in series versus 1 x 2400mAh 16500 into the same regulator, you're claiming that it switches between flatter lumen regulation Li-Ion mode and steeper change NiMH mode?

As mention in my last paragraph, I don't know any 3-4 cell AA lights that will support both NiMh and Li-ions so I'm not sure the comparison is meaningful. Most lights that support both cells are 1or2 xAA and a single 14500 will run a flatter output curve than 1or2 NiMh on the light's maximum mode.

 

[mcnair55]

the true shelf like of a good alkaline cell is much more then 5 years,

When we find flashlight still in packages from 1998 , I run for my voltmeter and take a reading, just about all of them still have 1.6v in them we are now almost in 2014 I always go WOW!

In 1998 we receive a purchase order an opening order of 40,000 2x5mm LED flashlights from the C.Crane Company, each flashlights hosted 3 AA alkaline, so we went from buying batteries from Costco to actually sourcing the best we could find Made in America, of course at that level of buying pennies count but we there were no way we could have compromised on quality since the warranty on those flashlights carries a life time.

Shortly before the PO came in,I had the great pleasure to meet an official from the world player in synthetic graphite manufacturer in Switzerland who knew who is who in the world of energy storage,
He connected us with a company in Canada who just was taken over by its employees after Duracell closed shop.
We ended up with Duracell quality AA alkaline delivered to us in shipments of 20,000 cells per week at the cost of US$ 0.09 LANDED IN PETALUMA (meaning shipping cost included).

The point of my telling you this little point in history is record and statistics which holds true to batteries from any manufacturer.
the alkaline batteries that you see someday in your device that have leaked and corroded your electronic or what have you were actually defective from the day they were born in at the factory.
Mostly it has to do with the insulator ring that is on the negative - end on Alkalines
some of them are already faulty from any factories and it is a known fact to them, it is a rather low percentage but it is an acceptable rate to them.
I came to know those facts when I called the factory to investigate since we were now sensitive to potential returns in big numbers due to faulty $ 0.009 batteries on devices sold for $ 32.00 a piece, the math is easy.

so part of our Quality Control QC was to inspect the negative side of batteries before insertion into the flashlights,
that was a fairly easy task,
1-take a box of AA bulk
2-invert it upside down and open with a razor blade the what was the bottom of the box.
3-put a sheet of paper over to cover all negative end of batteries.
4-apply force using silicone pad 1/4 inch on a press and walk away
5- come back 30 minutes later and read the page
6- use a magnet to remove the bad ones replacing it with a known good one each time else things can go crazy.

I even found some with no rings at all, needless to say they contained NO CHARGE AT ALL

Have you noticed that the corrosion is always on the negative side on alkaline.

I am grateful for this thread as it brings some very fond memories.

Thank you,i enjoyed the read and i still use Alkie batts as i have every faith in them,i have 3 expensive dab radios powered by Alkies.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

Correlating the poll results here to general population here is like correlating the result from a cluster of samples from psych 101 class as if it applies to the world.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?218653-Alkaline-battery-leakage-and-lithium-usage-poll
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?338882-Akaline-Battery-Leakage-Usage-Poll-(Part-2)
You can read the polls if you want to along with the comments from participants within them.

 

[AnthonyMcEwen2014]

I think you guys are speaking different languages.

When Anthony says "flat" I'm pretty sure he means lumen output, and yes the Li-ion will have a much flatter lumen output on max than NiMhs will. The guys here showing you battery discharge curves are technically correct that, NiMh V discharges flatter than Li-ion V, but that is irrelevant for a lumen output/runtime graph.

(Well, I don't claim to be an expert but this is my understanding)

The reason is that, although the Li-ion battery voltage is dropping on a linear basis, it is still always going to be above (needs a buck driver if anything) the minimum forward voltage required by the emitter, and therefore be able to power the emitter at max until it trips the battery protection circuit. 1-2 x NiMh, on the other hand, requires a boost driver to bring the voltage up to the emitter's minimum operating level (3 something volts), by drawing more current from the cells. As the NiMh's runs low, voltage sags and the cells are unable to provide the increasing amount of current to compensate, then the max output will necessarily drop.

This is definitely what you will see with a 1-2xAA vs 1xLi-ion light (like a Quark). Not quite sure what happens with 3-4xAA lights as I don't know any that will support both chemistries.

Ah yes that makes sense!!!

Although NiMH is flatter the power needs to be boosted were as lion while liner is always able to surrply the needs of the emitter! Thank you that clears it up, you were right I was thinking that the discharge curve was directly correlated to the output over timecurve which as you have explained is not the case and I can now see why!

Thank you.

 

[AnthonyMcEwen2014]

I think I'm going to do some more reading at battery university, however my only problem is it only goes into so much detail, its more like a guide to the general public who wish to understand a bit more about battiees/there use and capabilertys and limits/ potential dangers, not quite the more scientific reading I am looking for but I'm sure there's some stuff on there that will be of benifit to me.

Ooh this is very exciting lol! (Haha most normal people must think this is a very dry subject but I find it far from dry..)

 

[mcnair55]

I think I'm going to do some more reading at battery university, however my only problem is it only goes into so much detail, its more like a guide to the general public who wish to understand a bit more about battiees/there use and capabilertys and limits/ potential dangers, not quite the more scientific reading I am looking for but I'm sure there's some stuff on there that will be of benifit to me.

Ooh this is very exciting lol! (Haha most normal people must think this is a very dry subject but I find it far from dry..)

Anthony,

Treat all batteries with respect that is the best advice i can offer,will not be long before we have Lipo batteries in a flashlight and they can be really dangerous.They are used extensively in the radio control model hobby and you can buy charging bags to contain the explosion.

typical question on an r/c forum

I see all kinda of threads and info about lipo batteries blowing up, burning up, catching fire etc. Do I really need a bag to keep the battery in while charging and storing? I'm looking for a no BS answer here. I see way too many topics across the internet riddled with "they will blow up!" and the like. It reads like paranoia and really makes it seem like using lipo batteries is a waste of time because they have problems.

I have 3 different LiPos and I've yet to have any problems with them, but I know there are certain risks. I always store them in the sack when not in use. When I charge, I always keep and eye on them. Paranoia? Maybe, but ask the guys who've lost their house or car (not the RC one) to a LiPo fire if it's paranoia. I look at it like this: a bag costs $20. It's pretty cheap insurance and it adds 3 seconds to your charging/storing procedure.

So Anthony more for you to worry about.

 

[AnthonyMcEwen2014]

Anthony,

Treat all batteries with respect that is the best advice i can offer,will not be long before we have Lipo batteries in a flashlight and they can be really dangerous.They are used extensively in the radio control model hobby and you can buy charging bags to contain the explosion.

typical question on an r/c forum

I see all kinda of threads and info about lipo batteries blowing up, burning up, catching fire etc. Do I really need a bag to keep the battery in while charging and storing? I'm looking for a no BS answer here. I see way too many topics across the internet riddled with "they will blow up!" and the like. It reads like paranoia and really makes it seem like using lipo batteries is a waste of time because they have problems.

I have 3 different LiPos and I've yet to have any problems with them, but I know there are certain risks. I always store them in the sack when not in use. When I charge, I always keep and eye on them. Paranoia? Maybe, but ask the guys who've lost their house or car (not the RC one) to a LiPo fire if it's paranoia. I look at it like this: a bag costs $20. It's pretty cheap insurance and it adds 3 seconds to your charging/storing procedure.

So Anthony more for you to worry about.

I come from the RC hobby I am confident with lipo, and I know the danger's and just how real they are, I also know that everyone blows it out of proportion and makes it seem like a bomb...typical scarmomgering.... If use correctly it is fine, but dont consfure that with me saying its not dangerous it is, bit like a gun or firewroks but it can also be perfectly safe once the correct procedure and Knowledge is allied.

The problem is people dont know how to look after battery they think there just like the ones you get at the super market which need no instruction / care /matinance, but at the end of the day its like anything else you wouldent go an use a chainsaw without reading up on proper use or matinance first (and if you dont more fool you, not that iv ever used a chainsaw it was an ex sample).

I think lithuam has too much bad press so to speak and there are people who on this fourm won't go near a lipo, which really is silly, I can understand no wanting to use it once you have researched it and decided its too much like risk for them or not what they are looking for as they simply dont want to have to deal with the matinace and care, but to just point black go no I'm not ever using it because it dangours is just lunacy and ignorant.

Just look at the scare threads on this fourm, yes its very sad that something bad has happened but its a fluke or human error and is very rare, there also normaly a reason for iand it coukd have been avoided but thats like anything in life, yet people read these thread amd without doing any research into it swear blind never to use or go near this tech. How many people over the world are using lithuam based batterys and then look at the amount of failures and incidents, in all likely hood your average user won't even have an incident if they respect the batterys, although if you use it everyday for your life then yes you are quite likely to have something go wrong at somepoint but the same can be said for amnything.

As McNair said a Good fireproof lipo sack is useful (or am old ammo case like the army use, but make sure gas can vent you dont want a bomb on your hands)

I'm here as I dont know as much as I'd Like about batterys and I find it interesting, I'm confidante useig lipo but I'm not ignorant or arragont.

I do agree lipo/lion is not something that should be available over counter or or in a super market as people won't know what they are dealing with and will have accidents, unless the dangours were made clear at the point of sale, same can be said for fireworks and guns ect.

Well that's my take in it anyways YMMV.

Bit of topic but hayho!

 

[StarHalo]

there are people who on this fourm won't go near a lipo

That's not the problem, the problem is people who have absolutely no idea what Li-ions are or what's involved, and just go with their instincts on what to do with it. It's the guy who got an unlabeled cell with his $5 no-instructions flashlight purchase on a Chinese discount site no one's ever heard of, "I GOT SOME BATTERY WITH NUMBERS ON IT, I'M JUST LEAVE IT ON CHARGER AND GO TO WORK." We get at least one post a week like that..

 

[gravelmonkey]

That's not the problem, the problem is people who have absolutely no idea what Li-ions are or what's involved, and just go with their instincts on what to do with it. It's the guy who got an unlabeled cell with his $5 no-instructions flashlight purchase on a Chinese discount site no one's ever heard of, "I GOT SOME BATTERY WITH NUMBERS ON IT, I'M JUST LEAVE IT ON CHARGER AND GO TO WORK." We get at least one post a week like that..

+1. The reviews on Amazon for dirt cheap 18650 cells and charger bundles scare the crap out of me (bold my emphasis) these people could be my neighbours!:

"1* : On opening the package containing 2 x 18650 batteries and a charger the first thing i noticed is the batteries instead of reading UltraFire read UitraFlrc mmmm someone somewhere can not spell to good, this leads me to suspect they are fakes but still thought i would try them in charger and what you know .... nothing I have now binned them, after reading other reviews I might of been unlucky but I can only give my opinion on what I ordered and received and now chucked ."

"1* : I put one star as i cannot do zero star, the product is absolutely terrible. After 2 charges the batteries were just broke and wouldnt charge so i thought that id try charging them again and the charger caught fire. I was very lucky as it was on the floor in my garage away from anything that would burn, i thoroughly believe that if it had been in the house it would have set the house on fire. I repeat do not buy."

On topic: The only light I have alkalines in is one of those cheap 9 LED 3*AAA lights. I have a plastic box full of new in box and partially discharged alkalines. Leakers are noticed within a week or so and recycled. Kept for general scavenging (plenty of lumen-hours in them if used on low) and for times I want to remind myself how great technology is (I get bored before the 'dead' AA runs out on a low setting). Majority of stuff in the house has LSD NiMh's, with the exception of clocks which have alkies in them and run forever due to the very low current consumption.

 

[AnthonyMcEwen2014]

That's not the problem, the problem is people who have absolutely no idea what Li-ions are or what's involved, and just go with their instincts on what to do with it. It's the guy who got an unlabeled cell with his $5 no-instructions flashlight purchase on a Chinese discount site no one's ever heard of, "I GOT SOME BATTERY WITH NUMBERS ON IT, I'M JUST LEAVE IT ON CHARGER AND GO TO WORK." We get at least one post a week like that..

And that is exactly why in my post I stated that I'd not like to see these sold to people in stores like supermarkets, to many bad habits were people think its "just a battery" and would do exactly as you said.

And yhea same here I dont have many electronic devices powered by battery its mainly all mains powered except for things with lion in like laptops / tablets /phones.

The only gadgets o have that take batterys are clocks and a radio somewhere, which normaly run of alkis.

I just dont have much in the way of electronic gadgets...odd I know, I had loads when younger such as toys but not these days.

 

[Curious_character]

Anyone interested in comparing alkaline and NiMH cells might find this interesting: http://eznec.com/Amateur/1.5_vs_1.2_Volt_Batteries.pdf.

c_c

 

[HKJ]

Anyone interested in comparing alkaline and NiMH cells might find this interesting: http://eznec.com/Amateur/1.5_vs_1.2_Volt_Batteries.pdf.

c_c

You could also look at this comparison: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?367081-Comparison-of-AA-battery-chemistries

 

[StorminMatt]

So if NiMH batterys could have the capacity and light weight of lithiuam along WTH the fast charge and discharge charactistics would that mean everyone would want nimhs over lithium?

Trust me, if NiMH had the energy density of LiCo while retaining all of the positive qualities of NiMH, nobody would even care about the existence of LiCo batteries. As for charge and discharge rates, remember that there is not just a single lithium chemistry. And not all lithium chemistries have high charge and discharge rates. LiCo, for instance, has lower discharge and similar charge rates to NiMH. It is used in situations where high currents are not needed (like phones and flashlights), but long runtime IS. Other lithium ion batteries (like LiFePO4 and LiMn) have higher charge and discharge rates, but lower capacity. LiFePO4 is also unique among lithium chemistries for having a flat discharge curve like NiMH (maybe even more flat!). Here are some discharge curves for an A123 Systems 26650 battery, posted in a review by HKJ:

The full review can be seen at http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?342718-Test-Review-of-A123-26650-2500mAh-(Green)


Notice that voltage changes VERY LITTLE over the entire discharge, and doesn't even drop much with currents up to 30A! Generally, LiFePO4 is not used for flashlights due to its slightly lower voltage (compared to LiCo) and its lower capacity. But it finds more use with EVs, power tools, and RC cars.

 

[AnthonyMcEwen2014]

Impressive! Also explains why I though Lithium had a flat discharge, I was talking about the packs used in RC, referee to as LiPo. (Which I can see is LiFePO4 shortend)