Zebralight SC5 MKII

[eraursls1984]

...In lights like ZL where the pwm is too fast to be seen...

Zebralights don't even have PWM.

 

[chillinn]

Zebralights don't even have PWM.

Didn't take long for the denial. PWM is rapid on/off where the LED light output drops to zero. It has been clearly demonstrated in other threads on CPF that ZebraLight drivers don't technically utilize PWM strictly speaking, but the evidence presented, and the oscilliscope measurements prove, whatever you want to call it, it most certainly is not Constant Current, but something much closer in form to PWM than CC.

If no one really cares, let's just call it PWM for the sake of intellectual honesty, at the expense of technical accuracy.

Fast PWM: No tint shift, but may be much less efficient at low power settings.
Current control: may tint shift quite dramatically at low power, but provides the best efficiency. Battery life at lowest power settings can be dramatically longer than a PWM light.

Fireclaw18, you have boiled it down to all that could matter, and done so with brevity.

But it should be mentioned that the light levels we're talking about, with the worst tint shift with CC, are extremely low light levels, especially the sublumenal. Human eyes, when dark adapted to see when light levels are subluminal, can't distinguish color very well. Though tint for the sake of tint is it's own reward (tint snobs know), the tint that is best at rendering color won't matter as much at those low levels. So though this competition between tint shift and efficiency is all there really is to the PWM vs CC argument (for those that don't mind PWM), the emphasis on this tint shift is exaggerated, while efficiency seems to be disregarded as not important, in comparison.

 

[JDodd]

I'm new to non-eBay lights, but I went in with about a dozen models, two of which are Zebras. They're my favorites because of their feel in my hand and their (to my uneducated eyes) pleasing beams.

I've never seen an HDS, McGizmo, or Malkoff in person, but so far ZebraLight is my favorite brand and I'm very much looking forward to the SC5 Mark II and the four-18650 C3. I'd preorder these two lights right now if I could.

 

[Tachead]

Didn't take long for the denial. PWM is rapid on/off where the LED light output drops to zero. It has been clearly demonstrated in other threads on CPF that ZebraLight drivers don't technically utilize PWM strictly speaking, but the evidence presented, and the oscilliscope measurements prove, whatever you want to call it, it most certainly is not Constant Current, but something much closer in form to PWM than CC.

If no one really cares, let's just call it PWM for the sake of intellectual honesty, at the expense of technical accuracy.



Fireclaw18, you have boiled it down to all that could matter, and done so with brevity.

But it should be mentioned that the light levels we're talking about, with the worst tint shift with CC, are extremely low light levels, especially the sublumenal. Human eyes, when dark adapted to see when light levels are subluminal, can't distinguish color very well. Though tint for the sake of tint is it's own reward (tint snobs know), the tint that is best at rendering color won't matter as much at those low levels. So though this competition between tint shift and efficiency is all there really is to the PWM vs CC argument (for those that don't mind PWM), the emphasis on this tint shift is exaggerated, while efficiency seems to be disregarded as not important, in comparison.

You seem to be forgetting that ZL makes some of smallest, most efficient drivers in the industry.

None of you guys(PWM/Pulsing/creative camera work whiners) have any idea why ZL does what it does with it's drivers. You know next to nothing about driver design and most of you don't even fully understand simple electronic algorithms. You also seam to claim there is some massive downside to the system ZL is using in some of it's lights yet it can't be seen by the human eye, can't be seen by under normal filming or photography conditions, and has no other proven ill effects. You can only produce any evidence by creative camera work and/or waving your lights around like an 8 year old baton twirling kid at a school talent show.

So, ZL is pretty much the industry leader in driver design, they have excellent efficiency/runtimes(better then most other brands), you like their other features, you can't see any ill effects under normal usage or filming conditions yet you still make a huge deal out of some tiny algorithm anomaly. I just don't get it. I really think you guys need to get a life and quit cluttering up half the threads in CPF with your obsessive blabber. If you already didn't notice, it is annoying a lot of people and taking away from the great atmosphere here at CPF. You already have a thread about PWM so, why don't we keep the PWM/Pulsing/CC/etc. discussion in there and stop derailing and causing arguments in half the threads on CPF. I for one am sick of it and it sure seems many other are as well.

*I'm sick of it too! So Tachead... here's a suggestion... STOP POSTING! YOU are MOST of the problem! STOP! NOW! - This is your one and only warning. Next step is to be given some time off. Don't push me any further. -Greta

 

[Lucky Duck]

You already have a thread about PWM so, why don't we keep the PWM/Pulsing/CC/etc. discussion in there and stop derailing and causing arguments in half the threads on CPF. I for one am sick of it and it sure seems many other are as well.[/QUOTE]

Yes, agreed. I have heard/seen enough on this subject.

 

[amanichen]

You seem to be forgetting that ZL makes some of smallest, most efficient drivers in the industry.

None of you guys(PWM/Pulsing/creative camera work whiners) have any idea why ZL does what it does with it's drivers. You know next to nothing about driver design and most of you don't even fully understand simple electronic algorithms. You also seam to claim there is some massive downside to the system ZL is using in some of it's lights yet it can't be seen by the human eye, can't be seen by under normal filming or photography conditions, and has no other proven ill effects. You can only produce any evidence by creative camera work and/or waving your lights around like an 8 year old baton twirling kid at a school talent show.

So, ZL is pretty much the industry leader in driver design, they have excellent efficiency/runtimes(better then most other brands), you like their other features, you can't see any ill effects under normal usage or filming conditions yet you still make a huge deal out of some tiny algorithm anomaly. I just don't get it. I really think you guys need to get a life and quit cluttering up half the threads in CPF with your obsessive blabber. If you already didn't notice, it is annoying a lot of people and taking away from the great atmosphere here at CPF. You already have a thread about PWM so, why don't we keep the PWM/Pulsing/CC/etc. discussion in there and stop derailing and causing arguments in half the threads on CPF. I for one am sick of it and it sure seems many other are as well.

+1

There are also aspects such as ripple current on boost drivers and the fact that PWM lights are usually LESS efficient at partial power than CC lights, and yet AA powered Zebralights (and other cell types) are basically one of the most efficient brands at all drive levels.

Aside from seeing "pulsing" on an oscilloscope (which seems to cause some people to do the flashlight equivalent of concluding that unidentifiable lights in the sky must be ALIENS) I have yet to see anybody do an actual electrical engineering analysis of the circuits. I'm talking about identifying the actual components of the driver and pulling spec sheets to determine capabilities, and using voltage probes to identify the signals being sent between components.

I have a beater SC52w that I dedomed and I'm willing to ship to someone with a an actual BSEE for analysis if that will help squash rumors, speculation, and inuendo.

 

[snowlover91]

I posted in the main ZL thread a few days ago but I'll post a summary here too. I emailed them and they said they're hoping for a late March or early April release date for this light. However, they don't plan on putting the new programmable UI into it. They said they'll release that in one of their 18650 lights later this year.

Regarding the PWM debate, some may consider it part of the topic but I would rather that be kept separate so those who like discussing it can do so. Let this thread be about the features of the light because at the end of the day that's what people go to this thread for. Jmho.

 

[chillinn]

The PWM posts are on topic, as the subject was introduced naturally, and the discussion evolved organically. However, anytime someone starts a sentence with the pronoun "you," or directs their statements or argument toward an individual, it is in fact off topic. Speculating what is in someone elses' mind, or what educational history they have or do not have, is in fact off topic.. Telling someone what to do is in fact off topic, no matter how many agree with the sentiment. Focusing on the argument will keep the thread on topic, but focusing on the person is never on topic. Clear?

* You seriously need to take note of nbp's post below. I am sick and tired of your "reported posts" and whining. YOU are as much the problem as anyone else. STOP! NOW! The next step is time off. -Greta

 

[nbp]

Yay! PWM destroys another thread! This is getting fun!

Seriously, there are not enough :beatingadeadhorse: emojis in the world...

Move on from the PWM discussion and discuss something! anything! else about this light.

Jon slider and Chillinn, your PWM crusade is driving people nuts. Please please please drop it! If people want to talk about it they can come to your PWM threads. You need not bring it to every other thread and force your way in. Seriously.

 

[snowlover91]

Has anyone here tested out the Hi-CRI XP-L like ZL plans to use? 93-95 cri sounds great, 4k is a little warm for me but I probably could get used to it if it has a pleasing tint. I wonder if they plan any design changes since it's called the MK2? Plenty of questions to be answered and I hope they can get these out by late March so I won't have to wait too long!

 

[jon_slider]

Jon slider and Chillinn, your PWM crusade is driving people nuts. Please please please drop it!

I agree that any post about whether PWM is an issue, or not, is a waste of opinions.
I agree not to argue the pros and cons of PWM.
I agree posts in this thread about PWM, that do not contain the word SC5, could be deleted.
I tried to just post a photo of a Zebra SC52, without arguing about PWM theory.

Please delete any posts you feel are off topic.

In no way am I interested in arguing about PWM.
Im doing my best to just report what I see, without judging, and hopefully without being attacked.
If you have a problem with Chillin, please address him separately.
Im glad to see Greta also addressed Tachead.

I try hard to respect the title of a thread and stay on topic. Specific to the SC5 Mk2, I look forward to learning more about its beam color and quality. I have no doubt that Zebras are great lights, better than many in some ways. I actually like that Zebras are regulated, and personally feel no need for LiIon capability in an AA light.

 

[scs]

I posted in the main ZL thread a few days ago but I'll post a summary here too. I emailed them and they said they're hoping for a late March or early April release date for this light. However, they don't plan on putting the new programmable UI into it. They said they'll release that in one of their 18650 lights later this year.

Thanks for the update. That's just fine. The smaller output range of 1-AA lights naturally does away with perceived gaps in useful output levels. It's when the range is broad, as in the case of 18650 lights, and only a handful of modes can be directly access, as in the case with ZL's UI, that tough compromises with regard to what modes to keep and hide are necessary. With the new programmable UI, let's hope folks will have more options and their lights become even more useful.

 

[Random Dan]

Sad it won't have the programmable UI. The only thing I'd actually change is to make medium a single click and high a double click from off. My only complaint with my SC52 is that it's slow to access medium without a high flash. Probably 90% of my usage is medium and I only rarely use high. Hopefully there will be an SC53c with programmable driver and the same emitter.

 

[snowlover91]

Sad it won't have the programmable UI. The only thing I'd actually change is to make medium a single click and high a double click from off. My only complaint with my SC52 is that it's slow to access medium without a high flash. Probably 90% of my usage is medium and I only rarely use high. Hopefully there will be an SC53c with programmable driver and the same emitter.

I set mine up to have the lowest high setting so when I single click it will go directly to that. It's not that much brighter than the medium setting and is the best work around I've found. For the way I use my SC5w it covers most of my intended applications and I rarely need medium or the brighter H1 setting. With this setup I mainly press and hold for my low modes or single click for the lowest high. Works great

 

[Random Dan]

I set mine up to have the lowest high setting so when I single click it will go directly to that. It's not that much brighter than the medium setting and is the best work around I've found. For the way I use my SC5w it covers most of my intended applications and I rarely need medium or the brighter H1 setting. With this setup I mainly press and hold for my low modes or single click for the lowest high. Works great

Yeah that's kinda what I've ended up with. I have my H2 set to the lowest value but it still goes through battery over twice as fast as M1 and four times faster than M2

 

[snowlover91]

Yeah that's kinda what I've ended up with. I have my H2 set to the lowest value but it still goes through battery over twice as fast as M1 and four times faster than M2

Yeah not the best but it works pretty well. If they did a programmable UI down the road for this light and it allowed you to customize what 1 click, 2 clicks and the press/hold did it would be perfect. Think about it. Take their already great UI and let users choose how to set up the clicks based on what they want most. Add in the good build quality and hopefully high cri going forward (better tint consistency too hopefully) and you have a recipe for the perfect AA light. Either way I'm excited to see what they bring to the table this year with it and their new UI in other lights. I hope the XP-L has good tint consistency, I think Tac posted that it should due to it being a 2 step.

 

[eraursls1984]

Thanks for the update. That's just fine. The smaller output range of 1-AA lights naturally does away with perceived gaps in useful output levels. It's when the range is broad, as in the case of 18650 lights, and only a handful of modes can be directly access, as in the case with ZL's UI, that tough compromises with regard to what modes to keep and hide are necessary. With the new programmable UI, let's hope folks will have more options and their lights become even more useful.

The medium modes need tweaking to make it perfect. This is true for the AA and 18650 versions. The lowest M2 is too close to L1, and the highest M2 is too close to M1. If it could split the difference it would be perfect for the AA models, and good enough for the 18650. For the 18650 to be perfect, IMO, I would use the highest M2 and the lowest H2 as M1. I also hope we can enable more than 2 modes for each subset.

 

[Cobraman502]

The medium modes need tweaking to make it perfect. This is true for the AA and 18650 versions. The lowest M2 is too close to L1, and the highest M2 is too close to M1. If it could split the difference it would be perfect for the AA models, and good enough for the 18650. For the 18650 to be perfect, IMO, I would use the highest M2 and the lowest H2 as M1. I also hope we can enable more than 2 modes for each subset.

Right on. That is my biggest complaint with the SC600w MKIII hi. The medium should go up a little higher maybe the lowest high setting. I find when I'm walking my dog the lowest high setting is all I need to see far off objects but then for just navigation I have to jump to the medium setting by holding the button for a few seconds. Not a critical problem just observation. The brightness spacings need a little work or allow me to set them. Something like the brightness selection in DR JONES driver would be cool.

I really like the ZL way of double clicking for changing brightness in that mode (high med low).

 

[JStraus]

EDIT: Deleted Post.

 

[marinemaster]

Cant wait for the ZL SC5 MKII. Definitely a buy.