New HID From Group 5 Engineering

I was in the market for a Beast II when I received a new HID light for evaluation from a company called Group 5 Engineering (www.group5engineering.com), called the HB-1.

About the same size as the Beast and made of 7000 series aluminum (used for aircraft wing spar and load bearing components), it is simpler in its design, with fewer parts.

The reflector is a Group 5 design, and comes in two different head sizes, which could be described as large (HB-1), and larger (HB-2). This reflector is a bespoke design. Very efficient.

What attracted me to the light was its simple design and strength, along with its light output, which at 5900 lumens, is about 3X brighter than the Beast.

With adequate mass and a pyrex lens, there is no heat problem when handling the HB-1.

Priced at under $3000, The HB doesn't have the LEDs that the Beast has, but it is brighter.

I did do a quick comparison at a gun shop that had a Beast II, and found that the HB-1 was brighter, by a huge margin. The HB lit up a building across the 6 lane wide street in daylight, where the $4,500 Beast could just make the address sign reflect. At short range, it simply obliterated the light output of the competing HID flashlight.

Using a set of disposable 123's, it runs for about an 1hr+15. A lithium pack may be available, but it just wont last as long, and rechargeable lithium batteries have a habit of catching fire in hot environments, such as car trunks (I am qualified on this one). I will stick to the 123s and an extra magazine of batteries.

My intended use for the light is to chase coyotes from my property, which has a pond and swans, evidently a favorite delicacy of coyotes.

In testing it, the coyotes ran, but the raccoons stood up and danced.
The thing is big and heavy, but when I need light, it makes just about everything available look like a jar full of fire flies.

Outside of a helicopter born Night Sun, it is the brightest hand held light that I have ever seen.

I would post some photos taken across a canyon under a full moon, but I am not allowed to attach photos here.

Hi, Welcome to CPF!

Looks like a nice light. What color temp is the lamp, how much does the light weigh and is it waterproof?

You should do a search on "Xeray" and Barn Burner" to do a comparison of the Xeray commercially available 50 Watt, hand-held HID light. The 50 watt version puts out about 5,300 Lumens at a color temp of 4200K. The light weighs about 5 lbs, 5 oz and utilizes a rechargeable Lithium battery pack, good for about 90 minutes. While it is hand-held, it is a different style than the "maglite" style of your light. Some like it, some don't. Cost of the Xeray is under $1,000. Use Photobucket to host some pics of the light and of beamshots. We'd all love to see them. It's great whenever a new HID light comes on the market!

It would be interesting to see a shootout between these two lights.

oo: :wow: oo:
why does that remind me of an M6?

Illum_the_nation said:

oo: :wow: oo:
why does that remind me of an M6?

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It can show that how well the design/popular is the Surefire M6 that alot of flashlight manufacture are trying to have more or less the similar look and feel.

Illum_the_nation said:

oo: :wow: oo:
why does that remind me of an M6?

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It looks very functional to me as a way of minimizing heat transport from the bulb to where the batteries are, not to mention the operator's hands.

Sorry, for some reason reading SJMorgan's post just triggered a "shilling alert". Here we have a newbie, just-registered and his first post is to extol the virtues of a $3,000 light that he received for evaluation? Wow!

Anyway, I did surf over to Group 5's website. Those shots of the HB-1 look like CAD or ray-traced drawings, rather than real life pictures. The contact page also says "As seen in WIRED". Tried to search for it on wired.com but no hits. Strange.

If I'm off-base then I apologise in advance, but I just have a funny feeling.

Also limited to 2000 units as I recall. Still, it seems like a sweet HID. I wouldn't mind having one, but I'm not going to pony up for it!

JB said:

Sorry, for some reason reading SJMorgan's post just triggered a "shilling alert".

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Likewise sentiments here. Oh well. In terms of spam, it's a pretty benign post, and poorly done enough that he's not fooling anybody. ;-) $3k is way out of range for a light like that, at least Surefire has extensive street creds. If Group 5 made one of these available for a passaround I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated (I know I would personally greatly appreciate it).

I guess I tried to be too polite in my post above. My intent was to nicely let the poster know that what he was purveying was way out of wack with reality.

Passaround anyone?

I'd be in for that!

JB said:

Sorry, for some reason reading SJMorgan's post just triggered a "shilling alert". Here we have a newbie, just-registered and his first post is to extol the virtues of a $3,000 light that he received for evaluation? Wow!

Anyway, I did surf over to Group 5's website. Those shots of the HB-1 look like CAD or ray-traced drawings, rather than real life pictures. The contact page also says "As seen in WIRED". Tried to search for it on wired.com but no hits. Strange.

If I'm off-base then I apologise in advance, but I just have a funny feeling.

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Apologies accepted, but none are needed. I understand how you feel.

Photos are real. See, the photos were professionally done product shots, and not the usual sort of snap shot that I have seen on most forum sites. I actually saw the product for the first time at the studio, where I was checking out some other stuff for my work.

There are a couple of different designs. Some guys like fins on their lights I guess. Mine has none, but doesn't get hot.

Yes I am new to this flashlight hobby, but my work allows me to get all kinds of stuff for evaluation. I evaluate cameras, cars, motorcycles and aircraft as well. I am also a target shooter and a tool whore. I own a few vintage racers, and spin the wrenches myself. I also like EKA pocket knives.

SureFire has street cred to be sure, and many nice products (of which I own none). In the case of their Flagship product, Beast II, they are simply out matched. HB-1 is 3X brighter, has better beam spread, and much longer range. Its actually brighter than anything hand held at the moment. Size and weight are about the same. There are some features that I like about the Beast, such as the rubber covers and styling, but it just doesn't put out the lumens for its weight and cost.

The HB has appeared in Wired and Robb Report. They had evaluation units as well to play with. It will also appear in Auto Aficionado at some point, I suspect. The selection of venues for introduction has more to do with PR firms contacts and the need for those magazines to get special stuff for their Holiday issues. The Beast has appeared in some of these publications as well.

You can purchase and take delivery of an HB1 or 2 immediately. Today, if you like. Just call Group 5.

I have seen the XeRay. It is heavier, and uses Lithium rechargables, which I have a problem with in packs. Not quite as elegant as the HB-1. It's a little bulky and shaped like a lunch box, which is not easy to store in my mid engine sports car, or beneath the seat of my sedan. For the price, it is a pretty bright light.

But not quite as bright as the HB-1. That said, I liked it (especially the price to lumens ratio), but did not buy when I saw the HB-1.

The HB-1 is a hand produced work of art. No castings, each part machined from the solid block of alloy. The reflector is original thinking, spun and polished locally, and not sourced from China or India. It has an expensive parts content. I appreciate the effort that went in to it, the performance and the pricing.

BVH: The bulb is the well known D2S, 50W with and 5700ºK. That, along with the bespoke reflector might explain its brightness, which is certainly well within the realm of reality. It is possible to make a 75 watt version, but the problem of short run time diminishes the value of the product.

This is a site of flashlight geeks, and I am becomming one. Everyone here has a favorite, and shills for some company or another after purchasing some esoteric $500 light. Why not? If you like the product, you say so.

One way to learn more about new products and what works is to check out the Forum, right?

I am sure that at least one of you can probably qualify to get a unit for evaluation, right? If you are in the L.A. area, you can visit the manufacturer. I am sure that someone here can convince a small company to arrange a pass-around.

You can get pissy over the introduction of a new product, or you can investigate and discuss.

Remember when SureFire was a new company, with expensive lights?

As for being suspicious, well, anyone that pays three grand (or even wants to) for a flashlight is completely nutz. Hell, we could all be suspect.

I can't figure out why a light of this caliber would have a 5700K lamp when so many lumens and color contrast are lost by doing so. Same with the Microfires? Do you have any idea why they went with such a high color temp? Do you know the manufacturer of the ballast?

Welcome Group 5 Engineering

I saw your light in wired. So how long have you had a XeVision and do you have any beamshots to backup your claims?

You keep on comparing your light to the Beast.....can you throw the HB 1 as hard as you can straight up into the air.....when the light comes down onto the pavement let us know if it turns on. We know the Beast will

Does anyone else smell something funny?

Mac

BVH said:

I can't figure out why a light of this caliber would have a 5700K lamp when so many lumens and color contrast are lost by doing so. Same with the Microfires? Do you have any idea why they went with such a high color temp? Do you know the manufacturer of the ballast?

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No, but the reflector is pretty special, having an efficiency of over 92%. Over 95% of the output is in the visible spectrum.

Color contrast is fine for my old eyes. As far as lost lumens, check out the other high end lights. Which at 50 W is better?

I just sent the thing to a friend in the landing light business so that they could check out the reflector. They use the same bulb as well.

The guy that designed it probably went for the brightest lamp he could find, and worked from there. The reflector designer had some say in it as well, I suppose.

Most of my current work is in automotive engineering and testing. I have found that some things, such as the legendary handling of Porsches, is something to be amazed by, as Porsches have horrible weight distribution and polar moment. Yet. they still handle well. Porsche has spent quite a bit of time engineering around the problem, successfully. With a superior mid engine chassis available to them, they still keep plugging away with the rear engine 911, even in racing. As you wonder about the 5700K bulb, I wonder about the 911. I have to admit, the 997GT3 "Cup" that I occasionally test does handle quite well. Still, it's "designed wrong".

It could be that there are good reasons to keep the 5700K bulb. I find that it is apparently brighter than some of the Xenon "cold light" sources that I have worked with (I used to design lighting units for endoscopy in a previous life). Maybe there is a lumen loss, but compared to anything else? Its still (apparently) brighter.

SJMorgan said:

The bulb is the well known D2S, 50W with and 5700ºK.

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With that 5700K color temp the bulb would have to be Osram High color D2S bulb or it is an Asian made bulb. Osram does not make any true 50 watt D2S so it must be overdriven. If it is driven at 50 watts to the bulb the lumens at the bulb, output is less than 5300, more like 4500 or less lumens at that color temp of 5700K. Philips makes a 6,000K bulb so it is not Philips. GE makes a 5100K bulb so also not GE. Philips is the only reputable manufacturer of a true 50 watt D2S (P32d) bulb and it is closer to 4,000K output and about 5300 Lumens with 50 watt input.

4200K or there abouts is still the best color for flashlights. anything over 5100K is a mistake in my opinion. 3900 - 5100K is the best range.

This gets more and more interesting as time goes on....I would definitely like to see the innards of this light. And moreso what makes it worth 3000 clams.

Time for a shootout! Can anyone provide a phone number for Group 5?

Yes, it sounded funny right out of the gate to me. Between the comparisons with the Beast, it's obviously styled very closely to the M6, they're only making 2000, it isn't rechargeable, it supposedly uses a 5700K Osram??? and it costs substantially more than a Polarion X1 or Helios. Morgan may very well be just a new enthusiast with many hobbies and that's great. Welcome to the world of flashlights Morgan. I just don't have any interest in this light because of it's obvious short comings and price range. How is this light better than a Polarion even if it was priced at $2000 instead of $3000? I suspect that this light will mostly sell to un-knowledgeably wealthy people vs. enthusiasts and collectors, provided that they did their marketing research. Additionally, there has to be a very high percentage of mark-up for a company to venture into something like this and not loose their butts.

Sorry, not for me guys.

I agree with Mr. TB., time for a controlled shootout. What say you SJMorgan? People good at doing unbiased shootouts are here in the LA area.