Alkaline Batteries and LEDs

Confederate · Aug 27, 2008

Well, given the dismal performance of AA alkaline batteries with the Fenix L2D CE, I'm wondering now whether any LED light will run well with alkalines or if it's only the regulated lights that have problems.

For example, the E01 works well with AAA alkalines from what I understand.

I can't afford to buy a lot of lithium AAA cells to put away in an emergency kit, but I can afford 123A batteries at a dollar a pop. Two dollars+ for a lithium AA is a bit too much. I got some alkaline AA/AAA at Costco this week and they have 7-year shelf lifes (unless ONE starts leaking and takes the entire package with it!). Having read some good reviews of the Kirkland brand, I got a few bullk packages.

So I wondered if the L2D CEs (of which I have two) would actually produce the runtimes advertised by Fenix, or should I breeze over to DX and find a decent AA light that might work better?

Tuning in on the 2004 tests between the Kirkland alkaline, an NiMH, and lithium AAs, I didn't know whether the AA Q5s would be better or worse.

Given that lithiums and rechargeable NiMH batteries are clearly superior, is there any LED lights (perhaps unregulated) that might work better?

Thanks.

LukeA · Aug 27, 2008

Alkaline cells are inferior when it comes to delivering high current. That's why they don't do well in high-draw lights. The Fenix E01 draws very little current from its AAA cell, so the voltage of the alkaline AAA does not sag as much as if more load was placed on it.

No DX light will do better from alkalines than the L2D-CE. And the Q5 version of that light has the same driver and the same current draw, so the change in LED bin has no effect on battery life.

Lithium cells and NiMH cells hold their voltage much better under load, and so are much more suitable for high-draw lights.

Bottom line, use NiMH or lithium. NiMH is much, much less expensive to operate, costing much less than even alkalines.

Burgess · Aug 27, 2008

Just a quick suggestion . . . .

When yer' stuck with using Alkaline cells in
a flashlight like the Fenix L2D-CE,
simply use it at the lower light settings.

Medium level produces plenty of light for many purposes,
and it'll last more than 6 hours on a pair of Alkalines.

That's what i do.

_

asdalton · Aug 27, 2008

The Streamlight Propolymer 4AA Luxeon is an LED light that runs well on alkalines. But it's basically a medium-performance light (with an LED that's outdated now), and it uses 4 AA cells in series so that the current draw is relatively low.

You're not going to find an alkaline-powered scorcher in the 2xAA or 1xAA format.

etc · Aug 28, 2008

Confederate said:
Well, given the dismal performance of AA alkaline batteries with the Fenix L2D CE,

L2D is a great lite, it runs on *everything*

Turbo on NiMH and Lithium

Lower levels will run on Alkalines. MId to low level will in fact run on Carbon Zinc stuff. I Know, I've tried it. I got the cells for a few cents a piece so its an OK deal.

I can't afford to buy a lot of lithium AAA cells to put away in an emergency kit, but I can afford 123A batteries at a dollar a pop. Two dollars+ for a lithium AA is a bit too much.

Where do you get that info from? I regularly buy AA L91 off Ebay for around 1 each. You just have to get a large number like 80-100.

LEDninja · Aug 28, 2008

With the right light alkalines work better.
Take the Fenix E01 for example.
With NiMH they run 10 hours, then die abruptly.
With alkaline they run 10 hours, then give you another 8 hours of moon mode to find another battery.

Marduke · Aug 28, 2008

Try comparing apples to apples, not oranges. The type of CR123's you get for $1 each are not name brand. Reasonable priced CR123's which are name brand are more like $1.75+ each. e2 lithium can be found locally at any store for $2 each, or at Sam's Club for $1.67 each, or online for $1 each. Once you stock an emergency stash, you can forget about them for the next 20 years without worry of dead cells or leaking.

NiMH cost about half a cent per cycle. That's right, ~$0.005. Why does anyone use alkaline cells anymore?? :shrug:

selfbuilt · Aug 28, 2008

Confederate said:
Well, given the dismal performance of AA alkaline batteries with the Fenix L2D CE ...

I don't know what makes you say that (especially after the discussion in the similar thread you started 2 days). Fenix actually has one of the best performances on alkalines - see my Multi-stage 1AA round-up for runtimes on Hi, Med, and Lo modes on alkaline for all the competition.

The only real issue with the Fenix is it doesn't go as low as some of newer competition. The Zebralight is the best performing low-level light on alkaline I've tested so far, although the JetBeam and NiteCore 1AA lights certainly have quite decent regulated runtime on alkalines at their lowest levels.

Jarl · Aug 28, 2008

LEDninja said:
With the right light alkalines work better.
Take the Fenix E01 for example.
With NiMH they run 10 hours, then die abruptly.
With alkaline they run 10 hours, then give you another 8 hours of moon mode to find another battery.

]

Alkies have about 50% more capacity than NiMH as long as it's sipped at. A high power light tries to gulp the power, which alkalines dislike. TV remotes, low power lights and clocks sip the power.

TONY M · Aug 28, 2008

Confederate that looks like a huge folding knife.

The L2D does not do that badly with alkalines on high mode, though NIMH cells will still outperform it on all but the lowest mode where the runtimes are pretty similar.

I would like to see more reasonably priced 4xAA or 2D cell LED lights that preform well and offer good runtime but not everyone needs something like this.

HKJ · Aug 28, 2008

Marduke said:
NiMH cost about half a cent per cycle. That's right, ~$0.005. Why does anyone use alkaline cells anymore?? :shrug:

Maybe because your calculations are wrong for many uses.

Your can not only look at the recharge number, your also has to look at the lifetime of the battery.
How many years are your going to use a 2000mA NiMH battery: 5 years, 10 years, 20 years or longer?

I your are charging batteries once a week all year round, a 1000 cycle battery is good for 20 years.

etc · Aug 28, 2008

In fact, Fenix L2D works nicely on Carbon Zinc cells, which have been obsolete for years. It powers the lowest two modes just fine and with surprisingly good run time.

I got these cells for a few cents each. Maybe 3 cents each. They are kind of worthless compared to anything else, but can be used sometimes.

I noticed they ran MagLED 3AA nicely giving a good 1 hour run time.

gratewhitehuntr · Aug 28, 2008

must....

... have..... :drool:

.... knife..... :drool:

.........

although I wonder what Jeff would have though of it.......:thinking:

edit
wait.. went and looked it up but can only find version with 5 inch blade
is there a larger on around?
I already have knives that big

Marduke · Aug 28, 2008

HKJ said:
Maybe because your calculations are wrong for many uses.

Your can not only look at the recharge number, your also has to look at the lifetime of the battery.
How many years are your going to use a 2000mA NiMH battery: 5 years, 10 years, 20 years or longer?

I your are charging batteries once a week all year round, a 1000 cycle battery is good for 20 years.

I only figured 500 cycles, which would be reasonable for someone using a cycle nearly every day for some commonly used piece of equipment for about 2 years. Even if you reduce the cost per cycle to be equivalent to alkalines at 20 cents per cell (really cheap alkaline cells), your break even after just 12.5 cycles. Just think of every additional cycle after that as just being free energy.

But for the sake of argument, let's look at something more realistic. Let's say you only want to use a set of 4 cells for 1 year, and you recharge every week on average. Let's call that an even 50 cycles per year. 200 alkaline cells x $.20 ea = $40. A pack of NiMH cells are $10 for 4. So, even on a limited use basis of using your cells for only 50 cycles for only one year, NiMH cells are 1/4 of the cost of even cheap alkaline cells. That difference is further broadened if you consider that you get more use out of a cycle of NiMH than alkaline so you would actually need more than 200 alkaline cells, and that most packs of alkaline cells are not sold for 20 cents per cell.

HKJ · Aug 28, 2008

Marduke said:
I only figured 500 cycles, which would be reasonable for someone using a cycle nearly every day for some commonly used piece of equipment for about 2 years. Even if you reduce the cost per cycle to be equivalent to alkalines at 20 cents per cell (really cheap alkaline cells), your break even after just 12.5 cycles. Just think of every additional cycle after that as just being free energy.

But for the sake of argument, let's look at something more realistic. Let's say you only want to use a set of 4 cells for 1 year, and you recharge every week on average. Let's call that an even 50 cycles per year. 200 alkaline cells x $.20 ea = $40. A pack of NiMH cells are $10 for 4. So, even on a limited use basis of using your cells for only 50 cycles for only one year, NiMH cells are 1/4 of the cost of even cheap alkaline cells. That difference is further broadened if you consider that you get more use out of a cycle of NiMH than alkaline so you would actually need more than 200 alkaline cells, and that most packs of alkaline cells are not sold for 20 cents per cell.

I was not really after the "once a week recharge", but more thinking about uses where your only need new batteries once a month or even longer between. In the long run, NiMH will be cheaper for many (most) uses, but your have to pay more money up front and, as your also admit, your price is only correct for very heavy use.

gratewhitehuntr · Aug 28, 2008

my optical mouse freakin eats batteries
I recharge my energizer 2000 mah about every two weeks

considering I got them for $10 for 4 + a charger I get my monies worth

I'm sure hey aren't just low cap
tested on runtime in a light at a known draw rate

I gave the charger to someone with a 2 X AA light

Marduke · Aug 28, 2008

But even for light usage, the cell has paid for itself within 12 cycles.

Alkaline cells still have their place with things like remote controls, but in most applications they are hideously outclassed in every possible way.

KowShak · Aug 28, 2008

Nimh suffers from self discharge rates that are much higher than alkaline and alkaline starts off with a higher capacity so in some low current draw applications an alkaline (or even zinc carbon) will outperform NiMH by a long way. High current draw (e.g. excessively bright torches) its not the same scenario and the NiMH wins.

Jarl · Aug 28, 2008

KowShak said:
e.g. excessively bright torches

"excessively bright" and "torches" cannot be used in the same sentence on CPF :thumbsdow

:twothumbs

asdalton · Aug 28, 2008

KowShak said:
Nimh suffers from self discharge rates that are much higher than alkaline and alkaline starts off with a higher capacity so in some low current draw applications an alkaline (or even zinc carbon) will outperform NiMH by a long way. High current draw (e.g. excessively bright torches) its not the same scenario and the NiMH wins.

Low self-discharge NiMH cells are available now, and they pretty much negate every advantage that alkaline cells used to have over NiMH.

Alkaline Batteries and LEDs

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