My C3 has arrived! P90 vs P91 vs LED Differences & Other Observations

My first SureFire in the form of a C3-HA arrived on Thursday together with a P91 LA!

The C3 in its HA finish looks well built and has a remarkably stiff construction. It was a bit heavier than I expected but I love how it feels. Too bad though... as in a few days, I'll be giving this light to a friend as her birthday present! But only after I find out what configuration of this light will offer the most blinding power while retaining its relatively compact size.

Two issues I've had with testing the C3 so far though; one minor and the other quite significant:

The minor issue: The beam pattern as I've read in some reviews is indeed oval but looking at the lamp and reflector assembly, I can see why.

The significant issue: The P90 LA is quite a lot whiter than the P91. The P91 was quite yellow by comparison too but this was not a worry to me. What was worrying what its blinding power.

My friend and I went out to a dark field to experiment and we found the P90 to actually be more effective at 'blink-type(momentary activation)' blinding than the P91. It doesn't make sense that a 100 lumen bulb (though whiter) seems to be more blinding than a 200 lumen one but with more experimenting, I think I've worked out why:

The P91 seems to take longer than the P90 to reach full power and perhaps during this time, the human eye has more time to react and reduce the blinding effect of the P91. My batteries were brand new during the test.

Has anyone else had the same findings as me or is my P91 defective?

And a question that will involve LEDs: If the 100 lumen P90 is indeed more effective at strobe-type blinding then the P91, then shouldn't I just go with an L2 for more blinding power? Anyone compared the two?

Flea Bag said:

The minor issue: The beam pattern as I've read in some reviews is indeed oval but looking at the lamp and reflector assembly, I can see why.

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Why? The reason why is because the filament is not a point source - it is a bar.

Flea Bag said:

The significant issue: The P90 LA is quite a lot whiter than the P91. The P91 was quite yellow by comparison too but this was not a worry to me. What was worrying what its blinding power.

...

Has anyone else had the same findings as me or is my P91 defective?

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It sounds to me like the lamp is defective - I'd call SureFire.
However, I suggest you change the batteries for new ones just to check first.

Flea Bag said:

And a question that will involve LEDs: If the 100 lumen P90 is indeed more effective at strobe-type blinding then the P91, then shouldn't I just go with an L2 for more blinding power? Anyone compared the two?

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LED light tends in my experience to be more "blinding" but it also tends not to illuminate things as well as incandescent light - especially outside, especially when there is ambient light.

Using a flashlight as some kind of tool to blind somebody is a lot more about techniques, training and practice then it is about the tool. A flashlight is not some magic fix-it - it may buy you a few seconds in which you need to take the advantage. Being able to take the advantage is key whether it is created by a flashlight or other distraction. I have no idea how to use a flashlight to my best advantage in a confrontation. If I took out my EDC in such a situation I expect it would distract me and slow me down because I'd find myself unprepared and uncertain. At least I'd have something solid in my hand to strike harder with I guess.

It does seem that your P91 isn't performing as well as it should.

Al

I dont understand the whole blinding thing frankly. But that said, my P91 is also quite white (Im running on Pilas). And the reflection from it will practically blind me if I shine it on my hand a few feet away from me. It is really bright.

Your P-91 lamp is defective, my lamps (I have several flashlights with P-91's) have always been much more white and intense than the P-90.

The P91 draws more than 2 amps of current. On your small 123A cells, this causes the voltage to sag below 7V. That would explain the yellowing. The P91's beam should be whiter when powered by Pila 150S (Wolf Eyes 150B) cells, or 168S/B (using an A19 extender).

Are you sure your recipient won't mind the P91's short run time or thirst for 123A cells?

Also: If this is for self protection, consider adding a Z48 clickie switch. I think that a woman would prefer to be able to turn her light full-on with one hand.

My P61 seems to take longer to power up than the P60 as well. I would consider rechargeables unless this is going to be a EDPC (Every Day Purse Carry) lite.

Thanks for the great input guys...

My original reason as to why the beam pattern was oval instead of circular was because of the bulb being not quite centre and not quite straight relative to the reflector. Guess I stand corrected! Thanks Size15.

Yes the light is intended to be used as a blinding tool, not as an illumination tool so runtime isn't an issue. If all fails, it's also intended as a striking tool on the attacker's head. Better than nothing... Looks like I might have to go with an L2 instead of the C3 with HOLA but I will try getting ahold of another P91.

The Z48 also looks good but it all depends on whether I'll get the L2 or not. I've already placed an order for the M6!

The filament may not always be centred or orientated inline with it's surrounding bulb - it is the filament that is positioned so that it is in focus rather than the bulb.

Personally I'd carry the L2 over the C3.

Al

Thanks... I was looking at the SureFire literature and wondering about what they meant by "hand-adjusted to within 0.001" for optimum beam quality" when my bulb was clearly bent to one side! Hearing about the filament being at the centre and not the bulb make more sense now... Still wonder the reason for the blub not being in dead-centre and straight though.

By the way, it's quite alarming how quickly the batteries get hot when running the C3 on the P91. In less than 2 minutes of continuous running, the light warms up to to the extent where the heat become more than noticable. Not too hot to handle but a person as paranoid as I am starts to wonder if there is any chance of a 123 blowing up or melting! I know the light should be engineered to handle such situations but has anyone experienced a C3's batteries blowing up when powering the P91?

"CR123A" batteries if they are made to UL standards like those made in the USA are will have several safety features designed to prevent them from "exploding". The main one is a "thermal fuse" that 'cut' the power when the battery gets too hot. Once the battery cools it will 'turn back on again'.

This will usually only happen on the N62 lamp in the 12PM/12ZM although I have heard of it happening on the P61 lamp - this is not something I've been able to replicate despite using the M2 and G2Z a lot with the P61 lamps.

Al

Good to know the batteries are protected in a way...

On order is an M6 :buddies: and I'm considering an L2.

Still love the C3 though. Overtime I'll be adding the KT2-HA, MN16 and perhaps even an A19 extender, MN60 & MN61! Ah the possibilities...

Your blink test isnt an effective way of measuring its blinding power. For one you need the same person being blinded each time and once your eyes are dark adapted and then exposed to light it takes up to 30 mins for full dark adapted vision to come back. So essentially you would need almost an hour to perform two semi-reliable blink tests and then at that point you have to be concerned with the reliability of the reporter since his last test was a 1/2 hour ago. Also when the human eye is dark adapted any light directed at it is going to have a blinding effect and simple reporting by one individual isnt going to be a very reliable way of testing brightness since any light is going to be "bright" in dark situation.

nc987 said:

Your blink test isnt an effective way of measuring its blinding power. For one you need the same person being blinded each time and once your eyes are dark adapted and then exposed to light it takes up to 30 mins for full dark adapted vision to come back. So essentially you would need almost an hour to perform two semi-reliable blink tests and then at that point you have to be concerned with the reliability of the reporter since his last test was a 1/2 hour ago. Also when the human eye is dark adapted any light directed at it is going to have a blinding effect and simple reporting by one individual isnt going to be a very reliable way of testing brightness since any light is going to be "bright" in dark situation.

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Well I guess your system would be good for more precise tests when comparing blinding power of two different lights but I don't think real-life situations require such precision in the first place, especially when the results between the two LAs were very easy to tell apart!

My friend and I tried blinding each other over a period of a few minutes so conditions of testing were fair enough for comparison as both LAs were given roughly the same time between tests. Of more concern was if one bulb was significantly more blinding than the other and the 100 lumen blub did blind much more easily.

We also did just one blinding test in a more lit-up area like a car-park (still at night but much brighter) and as expected, the light failed to blind well enough and the attacker could still chase someone without having to stop and shield his eyes. In the darker field, the attacker was blinded to the extent that he couldn't tell which way the defender had fled in the first 1-1.5 seconds of being blinded.