Tactical flashlights giving false sense of security?

[M@elstrom]

I'd rather not gamble on the possibility that an attacker is drunk or high. He just might be psychotic instead. Also, too much ambient light in most city setting. A truly low-light environment is going to be tough to find. And finally, just how high is that High Output torch? My SF M6 is great, but it mainly stays at home. Since Surefire won't even make a holster for it, and all the aftermarket alternatives are either not a good fit, take too long to reach customers, or are run by guys who ignore e-mails and phone calls.

Sorry to hear of your difficulty sourcing a decent holster for your M6, have you looked at the offerings from Blackhawk OR John Willis? :thinking:

That's fine. But it's not a theory. Other CPFers have experimented with this, and gotten less than great results. If you'd prefer to rely solely on a flashlight's beam during a confrontation, that's up to you. I'd prefer to rely on its rigid aluminum construction instead. A Surefire 9P or Inova T3 makes one helluva good yawara stick. :thumbsup:

I never would never rely solely on a flashlight's beam during a confrontation and would quickly shift to using it as an impact weapon should the need arise, however I prefer to use my 21" ASP as a 'follow-on' technique, interestingly I've rarely deployed the baton but have noticed extending said baton appears to have a psychological effect of it's very own :thumbsup:

LOL I've got an Innova T3 too, but I reckon my M@gs would be more effective :devil:

FWIW I should have been more specific relating to the 'window of opportunity' being mere seconds (depending on individual's condition), just curious if you use the 'sweeping effect' to prolong the impaired night vision effect? :thinking:

BTW, a Mall Ninja is not a mall security guard or anyone else who works in a mall. It's a derogatory term for civilians who are fascinated with the topic of self-defense and the gear (supposedly) associated with it. But they're only interested in the cool factor and have no actual desire to learn what works and what doesn't. They spend their time trying to impress each other with their supposed knowledge of S.D., often based on having seen the latest Hollywood flick before their friends have. They buy cheap gear that is advertised with plenty of skulls and words such as "Great for decapitating scum-bags." (Perfect example: The knives sold by Dark-Ops. A company often referred to as "Dork-Ops," by those of us who actually have S.D. training).

A Mall Ninja is a wanna-be and a poser. Their advice on S.D. is based on misinformation, movies, and half truths.

While it's true ambient lighting will effect result my primary areas are extremely low light conditions (except for that HID in the night sky), I suppose the higher the ambient lighting the greater output your flashlight will require for the desired effect (I've had success with lights in the 140~170LM range)



Thanks for the clarification, seems different parts of the world have differing meanings for the term 'Ninja' indeed the term colloquially in my experience (in this industry) refers to exactly what I described an overzealous, overconfident, arrogant, reckless & know-it-all SO, I'd rather work solo than be paired with something like that!

 

[Monocrom]

LOL I've got an Inova T3 too, but I reckon my M@gs would be more effective :devil:

FWIW I should have been more specific relating to the 'window of opportunity' being mere seconds (depending on individual's condition), just curious if you use the 'sweeping effect' to prolong the impaired night vision effect? :thinking:

The larger Mags are definitely good clubs. But the T3 is a street-legal yawara stick. (Same length and general size as an actual yawara stick).

I'd go for a quick blast of light, followed by immediate follow up. Usually with the light itself since I'll have it in my hand already.

 

[Bruce B]

So your saying that a High Output light delivered to an individuals dilated pupils in low a light environment ONLY has a split second effect (if at all)? I wonder have you considered the effect of alcohol & drugs on pupil dilation & reaction times (relating to vision)? :thinking:


I've twice had to resort to flashlights during a confrontation to gain the tactical advantage and both times were successful (thankfully), I'm sorry but this whole split second recovery theory you propose doesn't wash with me, I'll have to respectfully disagree





That's a bit of unfair stereotyping right there... not everyone who works Security in a Mall (or anywhere for that matter) is a Mall Ninja (or wannabe cop), and secondly most people working in this Industry try to distance themselves from that type of over zealous employee as they're just plain dangerous/reckless


FWIW a knife fight is something to be avoided at all costs IMHO :thumbsup:

I'm by far not a Mall Ninja or Wannabe Cop and I work Security. All I carry when I'm working is a flashlight and a cell phone... Occasionally a pair of handcuffs, but that depends on my patrol or assignment.

 

[Monocrom]

To: Bruce B

You work security, but you sometimes carry handcuffs as part of the job? Under most circumstances, if a security guard even touches a person; instant lawsuit. You get sued, the client gets sued, the company you work for gets sued.

I'm curious, where do you work that you are authorized to use handcuffs?

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To: M@elstrom

Blackhawk holster isn't quite what I'm looking for, and while John Willis makes a great M6 holster; the wait is very long. Also, John has earned a generally poor reputation for communicating with his customers. (I don't need that type of headache). I'll most likely go for the holster that Wolf-Eyes makes for their 24w Boxer model. One CPFer has already confirmed that the SF M6 is a good fit in that holster.

 

[M@elstrom]

The larger Mags are definitely good clubs. But the T3 is a street-legal yawara stick. (Same length and general size as an actual yawara stick).

I'd go for a quick blast of light, followed by immediate follow up. Usually with the light itself since I'll have it in my hand already.

Not much is legal to carry in this State (let alone anywhere in Australia), 3D Maglites if they happen to get used in a SD situation wouldn't be deemed as aggressive as would a 5/6D, really it's all about purpose of intent, knives & laser pointers are also prohibited (unless you can prove them a necessary occupational tool)

TBH in a way we're actually fortunate to be able to possess and carry batons on duty (some States & employers prohibit such items), I just checked our Police Weapons Registry and Yawara sticks are also a prohibited item here.

FWIW we're also permitted to carry/use handcuffs in this State to arrest/detain an individual for their safety & ours (subject to strict guidelines/conditions) :thumbsup:


Collectors of such items as deemed prohibited are strictly regulated, licensed, controlled & subject to Police Commissioner approval (back ground & character checks)

 

[greenLED]

That's a bit of unfair stereotyping right there... not everyone who works Security in a Mall (or anywhere for that matter) is a Mall Ninja (or wannabe cop), and secondly most people working in this Industry try to distance themselves from that type of over zealous employee as they're just plain dangerous/reckless

Hi, M@elstrom. Monocrom explained the term quite well; I was trying to poke fun at some of the answers I assumed would come. I didn't intend it as offensive, so I apologize if you or anybody took it that way.

I have family and friends who are LEO/military/security, so I have nothing but respect to those who perform their duties proudly.

 

[Bruce B]

To: Bruce B

You work security, but you sometimes carry handcuffs as part of the job? Under most circumstances, if a security guard even touches a person; instant lawsuit. You get sued, the client gets sued, the company you work for gets sued.

I'm curious, where do you work that you are authorized to use handcuffs?

Under the California State Law, a security officer has to take and pass the powers to arrest test before he/she can work as a security officer or carry handcuffs. And yes under strict guidlines we have the right to detain and arrest individuals, for their safety & ours. Of course detaining and arresting a subject is subject to strict guidelines and/or conditions. Anyways... back to flashlights

 

[M@elstrom]

Hi, M@elstrom. Monocrom explained the term quite well; I was trying to poke fun at some of the answers I assumed would come. I didn't intend it as offensive, so I apologize if you or anybody took it that way.

That's okay the misunderstanding was all mine, just seems there's many different interpretations of the word 'Ninja' in the US (Security based forums) and Internationally in general

I guess the closest thing we have to Mall Rats/People here are Skegs, Bogans & Westies :thumbsup:

 

[foxtrot29]

To: Bruce B

You work security, but you sometimes carry handcuffs as part of the job? Under most circumstances, if a security guard even touches a person; instant lawsuit. You get sued, the client gets sued, the company you work for gets sued.

I'm curious, where do you work that you are authorized to use handcuffs?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I thought I'd put in my .2

A security guard, at least anywhere in Canada, can carry handcuffs lawfully, and use as much force as is reasonably necessary in lawfully arresting a subject. Prior to working as an LEO, I worked security at 3 different companies, and carried handcuffs at 2 of them and the third was a K9 company, so I was equipped with a guard dog there. I'd used force multiple times in removing people from premises in which they refused, or delayed in leaving on request.

Just wondering, why did you think a security guard couldn't touch anyone??

 

[Monocrom]

Just wondering, why did you think a security guard couldn't touch anyone??

That's just the way it is, here in New York City. I'm currently working at my 3rd security company. And all three made it clear that you don't even touch someone. Instant lawsuit.

 

[foxtrot29]

That's just the way it is, here in New York City. I'm currently working at my 3rd security company. And all three made it clear that you don't even touch someone. Instant lawsuit.

Wow, that's insane. Wonder if they maybe just aren't a little too worried about liability.

 

[M@elstrom]

That's just the way it is, here in New York City. I'm currently working at my 3rd security company. And all three made it clear that you don't even touch someone. Instant lawsuit.

Wow that's not Reactive OR even Proactive... it's simply Inactive Security, to do the job there's times when you need to lay a hand on someone...

 

[Monocrom]

To: foxtrot29 ~

No such thing as "too worried about liability," here in NYC.

Security companies and their clients have been sued successfully in the past. So much so, that companies with clients in NYC will do anything to keep from being sued.

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To: M@elstrom ~

I've found that retail security is the only type that would require putting hands on someone at some point in time. I don't work retail security. Knew a guard who almost got stabbed by a teenager over a T-shirt that the punk was trying to steal. He avoided getting stabbed, but still got his arm sliced open. Retail security is just not worth it.

 

[M@elstrom]

How do you 'lawfully eject' (aka trespass) someone off your site without touching them? OR if they decline you're supposed to call in the LEOs?


A 'knife fight' over a T-shirt? Retail Loss Prevention sounds harsh, did your friend change careers?

 

[Monocrom]

How do you 'lawfully eject' (aka trespass) someone off your site without touching them? OR if they decline you're supposed to call in the LEOs?

You ask them to leave. If they don't, you're supposed to contact your site-supervisor. (That's basically what you do every single time anything out of the ordinary happens).

A 'knife fight' over a T-shirt? Retail Loss Prevention sounds harsh, did your friend change careers?

Wasn't much of a fight. The guard was a Marine who recently got out. He was trained to properly deal with a knifer. And despite doing so, he still got cut. He's now an armed guard. I would have become one as well, but the liability just isn't worth the small increase in pay. Personally, I don't rent. I have a co-op apartment with no morgage. And I'm not looking to give away my roomy 1-bedroom apartment to some scumbag who's too lazy to work.

 

[RWT1405]

I personally have a real "problem" with people talking about knives (and lights) for self-defense. Unless you've been trained extensively in their use, expect to get hurt, very badly (even the best trained usually say they expect to be cut in a knife fight).

I almost always carry at least 1 knife, usually 2 (as tools, not for self-defense). A good flashlight is also always useful, but again, not for self-defense (at least not by itself).

For self-defense I carry something a bit more useful, a Glock G30 (w/ a SF 6P & Malkoff M60, of course!). I certainly hope I never need to "pull it" in anger, BUT, need be, I have no intention of bringing a knife (or flashlight) to a gun fight.

My .02 FWIW YMMV

 

[Monocrom]

I personally have a real "problem" with people talking about knives (and lights) for self-defense. Unless you've been trained extensively in their use, expect to get hurt, very badly (even the best trained usually say they expect to be cut in a knife fight).

The "expect to get cut" part is still a highly controversial topic in the Knife Combatives community. Some instructors feel that it prepares their students for that aspect of self-defense, so they don't freeze up if they do get cut. Others feel that it just sets a defeatist mentality in their students. There's really no consensus.

.... I have no intention of bringing a knife (or flashlight) to a gun fight.

It's best to be prepared for a variety of possible encounters. Not everything is going to turn into a gunfight. Even against a knifer, you still have the 21-Foot Rule to deal with.

 

[RWT1405]

I enjoyed your response Monocrom, and will tell you that my experience tells me those in a knife fight WILL be cut (24 years as a Paramedic & 17 years as a Tactical Medic); your experience may be different.

Actually, I believe the 21 foot rule has been debunked (it needs to be more). And YES you are correct that not everything is a "gun fight" and that we should be prepared for a variety of encounters, BUT, NO ONE will convince me that MOST people (a very few excepted) are prepared to knife fight.

BTW, if someone does "pull a knife" and attack me, if I have a choice (knife or gun), I have no doubt what I will "pull", otherwise I am just walking (or running) away. Deadly force is the proper response to deadly force.

Sometimes the correct answer is to not fight, however things don't always "work out" that way.

Never forget, the brain is the BEST weapon! He that is prepared, wins!

My .02 FWIW YMMV

 

[HELL LIGHT]

Unless you have a Surefire E2D. I don't think anyone will take your flashlight seriously as a tactical impact device!!!

 

[Justin Case]

21 foot rule has not been debunked. It is completely valid. What has been debunked is the misconception of what the 21 foot rule is telling you.

Dennis Tueller, while instructing at API/Gunsite, conducted a test. The par time for drawing and firing one shot to the A zone on an option target at 7 yds was 1.5 sec. He wanted to see how fast someone could close a 7 yd gap. It turned out to be about 1.5 sec.

What it tells you is that the minimum reactionary gap is about 7 yds. It makes no commentary on survivability. All it says is that you might be able to react to a contact distance weapon threat at 7 yds.

Clearly, a tie is not an acceptable outcome and wisdom suggests putting intervening obstacles in the path, increasing the distance, ordering the subject to the ground, getting the gun out into low ready, etc.