Tactical flashlights giving false sense of security?

[isc]

Another question re the knife.

Have you trained with that knife? Are you confident in handling it? A HUGE number of people who are stabbed on the street have been releived of their weapon and had it turned on them. So let's imagine in this situation, you had pulled the knife... now what? Wave it at him, hoping he runs? What if he doesn't?

I admit when I was younger (15 year old punk), I carried a balisong which I was good at flipping, but wouldn't have been really good at actually using, had push come to shove. Not wise. If you are serious about carrying a knife for self defence, get a Spyderco P'Kal or a Shivworks/Trace Rinaldi Clinch Pick, and the Shivworks Reverse Edge Methods Volume II DVD (contains all thats in REM I and a whole lot more). And train, train, train and train some more. Be very aware of what you're training for.

 

[tacticalmedic87]

Flashlights, guns, knives, all these things are just tools, and some times the best way to use them is to not. I have been in situations where I have had road raged drivers pull a gun on me and the best thing I could do was leave QUICKLY, even though I had my gun on me and loaded. Most people here carry the best equipment they can, lets face it that's why we are all here, but we can all agree that the most valuable is a clear head and rational thinking. You did good, pick your battles, live to fight(or not fight) another day.

 

[g36pilot]

To the Op: You did well with the tools you had.

Suggestions:

Joe Talmadge's post is the closest to my read on you're encounter. Any weapon/tool can give you a false sense of security. Work on better situational awareness and disengagement efforts. I can tell from you're post you've learned much from this encounter.

Learn to recognize a potential threat before it becomes one and act first by creating more distance, obstacles, effort for the bad guy long before he's in a position to attack. Your guy may have disengaged because of witnesses and the potential cover and/or assistance from the nearby dorm. Bad guy's will chose the location & timing of an attack- interfere with this effort by moving.

In this environment you don't owe anyone conversation. It may be distraction to get closer to you. Keep moving. For an non-threatening example of this visit a tourist area with people soliciting charitable donations and/or plain old begging. The verbal techniques are friendlier, but similar. You can practice walking techniques as they usually try to confront you by standing in your way. Change your walk vector and keep moving, cross the street if you must. if they continue to approach, you are the target. You may see them chose an easier target. Make a game out of figuring out who's potentially going to approach you before they reveal themselves with an action.

The goal is to recognize & avoid a potential threat. It takes forethought, awareness, and usually very little effort.

 

[SureAddicted]

Another question re the knife.

Have you trained with that knife? Are you confident in handling it? A HUGE number of people who are stabbed on the street have been releived of their weapon and had it turned on them. So let's imagine in this situation, you had pulled the knife... now what? Wave it at him, hoping he runs? What if he doesn't?.

This is exactly the point I make using any kind of weapon. Pulling out a knife can do more harm than good. If you don't have the training, the knife can be stripped from you and used against you. Another thing, if you did pull out a knife, you would escalated that situation where it could of been potentially dangerous for you and your girl friend. Having the training could mean the difference between disabling someone or potentially killing them, if you don't know what your doing.

It takes more of a man to walk away from a fight.

EDIT I was taught to use weapons as a last resort. Pulling out a knife when there was no physical confrontation could of been the worst possible thing you could of done. Don't get in the mindset that a weapon can compensate in regards to lack of training.

 

[Solscud007]

I couldnt agree more. I was foolish in my youth to carry a pocket knife. It did provide a false sense of security. Sort of overcompensating. I didnt really dream of it, but the idea that I could "save the day" with my knife was in the back of my mind. But that will never happen. I stopped relying on my knife. Of course there is the paranoia of "Oh god what if Im attacked by a guy with a knife or some other form of aggression" well like MANY people here have said, Situational Awareness. Dont put your self in that area/situation if you cant help it.

I have a problem with the OP first thought. "thinking that a knife would have been better than a flashlight" There are too many ramifications on the use of lethal force. There has to be a CLEAR justification to use it. Often enough it is a very very narrow field. Which means you would be screwed if you dont know the exact letter of the law.

Here is an example, I have heard a few horror stories. You are in your house. Someone you dont know or invite, enters your home. Possibly a burglar. You shoot them as they come toward you. Unless the perp is dead. The defense of "He was coming at me" does not always get you off the hook here. Even then killing the perp may not work. It could come back to bite you in the butt. Some one could sue you and ask the simple question "why didn't you run away" If there had been an avenue of escape for you, and you decided to shoot someone instead of running, then you become the badguy. stupid thinking I know. but there you have it.

Avoid confrontation is very KEY. Dont rely on false talismans. It is difficult to rationally think when you are perceiving danger. But training and practice makes for better handling of a situation.

Similarly, i used to race/drive my car very quickly on road courses with a little bit of mountain/canyon carving thrown in there. There is a threshold for speed and comfort. The more you practice and become comfortable the better off you are judging how to "handle" what ever come at you. Thus you can drive faster or at least maintain your speed etc. there are many times where this slow evolution of practice and raising my threshold of danger has allowed my cooler head to persevere and save myself from accidents. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Zatoichi]

For an non-threatening example of this visit a tourist area with people soliciting charitable donations and/or plain old begging. The verbal techniques are friendlier, but similar. You can practice walking techniques as they usually try to confront you by standing in your way. Change your walk vector and keep moving, cross the street if you must. if they continue to approach, you are the target. You may see them chose an easier target. Make a game out of figuring out who's potentially going to approach you before they reveal themselves with an action.

That's a clever and useful idea. I actually do this to avoid market researchers and sales people etc in town, but I hadn't thought of using it as practice to avoid confrontations with thugs.

To the OP, I think you did better than a lot of people would under the circumstances. I've been in that situation quite a few times, and it never gets easy. There's some great advice in this thread though, which will make it easier. I agree with others who said it can be disasterous carrying/pulling a weapon you're not trained to use.

IMO some MA is more use than a knife in many of these situations - not just because of the fighting skills, but because it improves your chance to duck and run. The number of people who'll stand there like rabbits in headlights and let themselves get hit never ceases to amaze me. Quick reflexes and quick feet go a long way. Another advantage to some kind of unarmed combat training is, you never leave it at home, and nobody can take it from you.

Having said that, I live in the UK where carrying weapons is prohibited. If you feel there's a real need to carry something like a knife where you live, by all means carry one, but as others have said, make sure you'll know exactly when and how to use it.

Regarding torches and self defence, I would definately use one in certain situations, but I envision using it to temporarily blind someone while I scarper, rather than trying to beat them senseless with it. I'd hate to damage a good torch.

 

[Monocrom]

Regarding torches and self defence, I would definately use one in certain situations, but I envision using it to temporarily blind someone while I scarper, rather than trying to beat them senseless with it. I'd hate to damage a good torch.

That's been discussed on numerous threads. It doesn't work that way. The few circumstances where that trick can be pulled off, you get a split-second delay from the attacker. Now what? Better have a way of dealing with him after that rare split-second delay.

Regarding weapons taken away and used against someone:

Very true when it comes to guns. Every year, more than a few highly-trained officers get their guns taken away and used against them. But the same is not so accurate when it comes to knives. They have a cutting edge. Someone reaches for your knife, your instinct is to immediately pull your arm back. If their fingers or hand are near the cutting edge, they get cut. Short of another attacker sneaking up behind someone and knocking them to the ground, the Defender is not likely to lose or drop his knife.

A person would have to be a complete idiot to have their knife taken away from them, against a lone attacker who doesn't have a superior weapon.

 

[LED61]

That's been discussed on numerous threads. It doesn't work that way. The few circumstances where that trick can be pulled off, you get a split-second delay from the attacker. Now what? Better have a way of dealing with him after that rare split-second delay.

Regarding weapons taken away and used against someone:

Very true when it comes to guns. Every year, more than a few highly-trained officers get their guns taken away and used against them. But the same is not so accurate when it comes to knives. They have a cutting edge. Someone reaches for your knife, your instinct is to immediately pull your arm back. If their fingers or hand are near the cutting edge, they get cut. Short of another attacker sneaking up behind someone and knocking them to the ground, the Defender is not likely to lose or drop his knife.

A person would have to be a complete idiot to have their knife taken away from them, against a lone attacker who doesn't have a superior weapon.

If the attacker is an avid martial arts expert or has proper training, he can take a knife or gun on close quarters in a blink of an eye from an inexpert knife waving person. The person does not have to be an idiot, just inexperienced.

I have also seen an armed man severely injured in closed quarters from another guy using a machete. That´s right, gun against a machete.

Close quarters combat is another matter altogether.

 

[Monocrom]

If the attacker is an avid martial arts expert or has proper training, he can take a knife or gun on close quarters in a blink of an eye from an inexpert knife waving person. The person does not have to be an idiot, just inexperienced.

I'm well-versed in that myth. A sharp cutting edge makes disarming someone of their knife much more difficult in reality, than in a dojo. I can tell you quite a few horror stories of Master Instructors who could disarm their own students in a blink of an eye, only to end up in the hospital when confronted by a stranger with a blade; out on the street.

I have also seen an armed man severely injured in closed quarters from another guy using a machete. That´s right, gun against a machete.

Close quarters combat is another matter altogether.

Very true. All weapons have their range. Up close, a knife will do more damage than a gun. Especially if the Defender can't get his gun out of the holster fast enough.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Monocrom, just imagine what would all those sheeple-esque posts cause in the Practical Tactical section of Blade Forums... I think I will select some of these gems to post over there. Hehe.:devil:

 

[arjay]

Thanks for the advice guys. Will give this thing more of a thought so that I can act accordingly if the situation ever arises again or avoid confrontation all together. I can now see many of my flaws and will correct them. I think everyone here can learn from the insights given here so that we will know what to do in situations like this and try not to get killed.

 

[Zatoichi]

That's been discussed on numerous threads. It doesn't work that way. The few circumstances where that trick can be pulled off, you get a split-second delay from the attacker. Now what? Better have a way of dealing with him after that rare split-second delay.

Well to be honest I've never tried it, so I'll take your word. After having a couple of hundred lumens in my eyes though, I know it can take me more than a split second to recover. Given a full second I could get a decent head start, but then it depends if there's somewhere close by to run to. If not, and the person can out-run me, I'd have to fight anyway. I wasn't advocating it as a reliable method btw, it's just a card I might play given the right circumstances. Naturally I prefer to rely on the 5 step exploding heart technique...

Very true. All weapons have their range. Up close, a knife will do more damage than a gun. Especially if the Defender can't get his gun out of the holster fast enough.

There's some good videos illustrating that (some are on Youtube I think). Anyone who doesn't believe this should look out for them. It's common sense really, but the distance at which a knife can come out on top is quite surprising.

 

[FelixGR]

Dear Friends

I didn't had the chance to write something in this beautiful forum for some time now, due to various job issues and I apologize for that.
This forum consists of fine people and I am always happy to read the words being written here.

Now I just came up to the question of arjay and I am willing to share my
personal experiences, plus a fact that I ran into today.

First of all we say in Greece that "The Tongue has no Bones, but it can crush them", In all aspects of a "fight" its is better speak than to act. The only possibility that the latter could be wrong is if the defenders life is greatly threatened. Better to talk to someone than to enter a fight with him/her.

If someone is attacked he/her should firstly assess the situation:
Does it seem light/moderate/high risk?
In most of the cases the risk will be low/moderate (unless you are in a combat zone, i.e. Normandy 1944, or in the worst parts of a city-don't go there if you don't have to)

So in most cases fights start with no actual/apparent reason/threat and in many cases they lead to bad/point-of-no-return results.
I am not saying someone should start running, but everyone can understand simple words, and all of us can understand the existence of a weapon (even a flashlight can be assessed as a threat by someone who
might not be willing to actually enter a fight).

Only in the case when there is no other way (i.e. hand2hand combat initiates or a weapon is presented) only then someone could use the maximum amount of a counterstrike (hand2hand or combat respectively)
The presence of a "weapon" greater than the "threat" (even as a method to scare someone of) could result in a greater fight than "requested" by your attacker. So if someone would come near me with no weapon then I would never draw a knife or my 9mil, just because hand2hand combat may never initiate but as soon as you draw knifes, pistols, shotguns and bazookas then you are surely in for a fight. Additionally if approached by sm bearing no weapon, the defender pulls out a knife, god knows what the attacker may also have...

In your case my friend you were also escorting a lady and if something would happen to you, then she could be twice as vulnerable. So it is better that you did not present any sort of "weapon" and left the scene.

Today I entered a courthouse here in Athens, Greece (yes everyone can attend and hear trials, it can be very interesting to see how lifesometimes can get ugly with no reason whatsoever) and there was a guy (A) from another country that entered a fight with another guy (B) from his country and stabbed him with a small Swiss army knife in self-defense. The A was going to meet his wife (he had various problems with her as he explained to the court) and she was with the B guy (who was his fellow-worker) she apparently wanted B guy to harass A guy and she lured A to her house. As the A guy approached he saw her and B and didn't leave the scene, thus entering her plan of harassment. B attacked A with his hands, A had the small SAK in his key ring, he used it and stabbed A.

-If A would just go away (and to to the police) as soon as A saw her and B approaching he would not have commited a murder

-If A woulf not have used his SAK he would not have commited a murder

In both cases he would not have ended in a court being accused of murder. Maybe in the second case would have ended up in with some bruises, but better than in jail.

Sorry if I tired you with my ideas, but I strongly believe (even if I carry a small knife-for general purposes on me) that it's always better to avoid a fight that you can avoid.

 

[greenLED]

Mall Ninjas, UNITE!! :nana:

 

[Solscud007]

Mall Ninjas, UNITE!! :nana:

I prefer the term: R.O.S.W.





Retail Outlet Shadow Warrior haha j/k

 

[Illum]

Evasive maneuvers usually is the wiser of choices when facing a confrontation...A pocket knife...or more comically, the edge of a flashlight might only be of real aid if your opponents not facing your way and that you can engage as a surprise attack; otherwise a plastic fork is more lethal than your pocket knife, especially if your opponent happened to have street credit as a slugger.

I have 911 on speed dial and had to use it once off campus when a middle aged man came up to me with a beer bottle asking for money and got nothing in return but stars from the M6. The man was a bull running blind at anything that interests him, it still scares me to think of what might happen if he managed to tackle me to the ground. Thankfully, two years of tennis taught me to run the court on a seconds notice but I'm not pressing my luck anymore:green:

 

[Lightraven]

The original situation didn't justify deadly force (i.e. a knife). Pulling it out, let alone using it would have been a mistake, as many have already pointed out. Training isn't the major issue, the law is. "Highly trained knife fighters"--right--have no more business deploying a knife on a drunk/drugged jagoff than my mother.

Want to know the law regarding knife use? Just look up the laws regarding gun use and replace "gun" with "knife." That's about it. In California, the laws are--Assault with a Deadly Weapon: Firearm, Great Bodily Injury likely and ADW: Not a firearm, GBI likely. That's what you'll be charged with (or attempted murder or murder) unless you can justify that use with articulable facts, known to you at the time (not afterwards), supporting your objectively reasonable belief (not unreasonable belief based on your fears) that you or another person was about to sustain serious injury.

Also, you must not be committing any crime at the time, must be somewhere you can lawfully be and must not have incited the other person into a fight. There are a few other actions I'd also recommend such as not fighting over "honor" or pride or women's honor or pride, not having drunk alcohol recently, calling police as soon as possible and telling the truth, not altering the scene or coaching witnesses ("It looked like he had a weapon, right?"), within the limits of 5th amendment considerations.

Is it different in Philippines, Greece or Australia? Doesn't sound like it.

 

[Monocrom]

Monocrom, just imagine what would all those sheeple-esque posts cause in the Practical Tactical section of Blade Forums... I think I will select some of these gems to post over there. Hehe.:devil:

The sad part is.... some of those gems are actually quite mild, compared to what I've seen on other sites.

 

[dudemar]

Mall Ninjas, UNITE!! :nana:

Amen brother, amen. I had my share of Mall Ninjas yesterday (Black Friday). They wear those hats to look more "intimidating".:laughing:

 

[Zatoichi]

I hope you don't post my comment about the 5-step exploding heart technique on other forums... 'cos that's meant to be secret.