A new High CRI LED flashlight

[Rob Brekelmans]

Hi all,

I would like to start a discussion about designing a High CRI Flashlight.

I'm an industrial designer in Holland and am working on a special project, which involves high color rendering lights. Sorry, I can't tell you everything about the project. It's in the Concept stage and I have to make a lot of choices soon.
Last week the project took an unexpected turn and now I'm researching the flashlight community. Which I never expected it to be this big btw.

Because of the turn of events my light has al lot more possibilities and therefore a lot more users. Therefore I would like some info from the fans of flashlights. If I build a High CRI LED Flashlight, what would you like it to do? Why would you buy one? (price) Where would you use it? And what kind of specs would you like it to have?
Here are some words for inspiration.

Waterproof
Lightweight
handheld
Small beam, wide beam
High lumen, low lumen
Heavy, small
Cheap,
Long battery life of course.

Everything you wish for.
If the concept gets an approval next month it might be on the market next year.

Thanx
Rob

 

[DM51]

Welcome to CPF, Rob Brekelmans.

You posted this in another thread, but I think you were right to conclude it belonged in a separate thread of its own. I have deleted the other post, as it was off topic there.

 

[neoseikan]

I like Hi CRI LEDs.
Many dreams about it.
LED projector, LED desktop lamps, etc.
SSC told me they will sell a Ra93 P7, but no updated news.

 

[AardvarkSagus]

Hello and Welcome Rob. This is Dave Wise From Luxury Flashlights. I've already tossed off some of my ideas to you there but I'll mention some tidbits here.

Reliability, Usability and a flawless beam are a must to me. I like the ability to choose my brightness level and if possible, the beam profile as well but neither are absolutely necessary. I think a small light and a Medium to Wide beam (floody) are the optimal characteristics for something like this. Color rendition is less necessary when you are spotting at a distance than up close in my opinion. Lightweight, but solidly constructed.

As far as battery life goes. You will get many opinions extolling the virtues of CR123A vs. AA cells and rechargeables vx. Primaries, but I think we all can agree that efficiency is extremely important. Whether bright and short lived, or strategically low power and long runtime, it must be as efficient as possible.

 

[kramer5150]

Ooh sounds like a fun project. I only dream about High-CRI lights because they are so expensive. They are a niche-market, high end product that is out of reach for most. Custom, low volume fabrication thus far has been the norm. So if I could suggest one major design goal... make it as affordable as possible and therefore within reach.

anyhoot, here are some of my preferences, I bolded the major preferences... LOL

-Flat regulated output from 18650, 17650, 2xRCR123, 2xPrimary. VERY few lights actually achieve this AFAIK. Lumapower Encore comes to mind immediately.
-Design the bezel so it is replaceable
-Bezel should obstruct as few side-emitted lumens as possible.
-Aluminum, typeIII anodize.
-Khatod optic, to maximize efficiency. Glass lens in front for protection. You could sell optional optics some for throw and others for flood. 5-8 degree would be my preference.
-Good thermal management, thermal conduction path directly through the body and bezel.
-Water submersible (shallow is sufficient), O-rings wherever possible, or at least splash & light rain resistant.
-No glue or adhesive, make it completely field replace-able.
-Forward click switch or twist with momentary.
-3 modes with mode memory, max ~150L on high, ~7 Lumens on low-low, medium somewhere in between. No flashing modes.
-Set PWM at a high enough frequency.
-Removable belt clip, bezel down variety.
-Lanyard hole, or attachment ring.
-Aggressive but cleanly machined knurl to increase grip.

Let us know when the pre-order date gets near!! and welcome to the forum!!

 

[Derek Dean]

Howdy Rob and welcome to CPF,
That sounds like a mighty interesting project. Thank you for soliciting our input.

I'm with AardvarkSagus in this: " Reliability, Usability and a flawless beam are a must".

The type of beam I've found to be most useful is that produced by my NovaTac 120P, in fact, if they put out a new model with a high CRI LED in it I'd snap it up immediately. It's got a nice tight central spot that gives reasonable distance and then it transitions smoothly into a bright even spill beam with NO artifacts (bands of light and dark).

I think a multi-level light with good regulation (even brightness over the life of the battery) increases it's usefulness immensely, giving the user the ability to have either long runtime or very bright light..... also allowing us to use the light for lighting up a room or reading something closeup.

Once you get into multi-level lights you will find that everybody likes a different type of UI (user interface). Some folks want the low level to come on first and some want the high level to come on first. One of the reasons I like my NovaTac light is that it gives me the ability to customize the UI so that I can choose which level comes on first, and change it any time I like.

Battery choice. Hmmmm. There are many variables involved. For the smallest, most powerful pocket light you will want it to be able to run from a 3.7 volt lithium-ion rechargeable cell.... either of the RCR123 variety or the 14500 AA variety. Choosing the 14500 AA means it should also be able to accept regular alkaline AA cells (possibly with reduced performance), as these are inexpensive and commonly available. If you can, offer several models, including a small pocket sized light and a slightly larger all purpose light.

Water resistant is a must, with adequate O-ring protection at the bezel/window area and at the battery tube opening.

You will probably want some type of UCL (Ultra Clear Lens) front window to let as much of that beautiful high CRI light through as possible. Include a stainless steel front bezel for added protection. Try not to scallop the front bezel too much (if at all), as that can eat away at pockets.

Type III hard anodizing on a high quality aluminum body is considered pretty standard for the finish these days. Make sure the threads are not to fine or they may wear too fast.

Price? Of course that's always a big part of any project, finding the right price point. I think most folks on CPF realize the value of investing in a well thought out and finely crafted light....... but many folks out in the real world have a hard time justifying anything over $20-30 for a light. I think if you can hit around the $40-60 mark and show that the light is well crafted, then back it up with a good warranty and customer service, you will find a market at least on CPF.

Good luck with the project. I'll look forward to following your progress.

 

[Chrontius]

I'm gonna support Rbo on one point - the stainless bezel. I've got a couple Inovas I beat the crap out of, but because of the stainless rings on both ends, the damage was not nearly as bad as it could have been (and was - on a similar aluminum light I only dropped once). I would however like some light scalloping for the sake of "Oops, it's on" detection when placed face down.

May I suggest a simpler method for your UI that still allows three levels - a head-twist method with witness marks and a faint 'click' as it engages each level. If you're not sure what I mean regarding witness marks, look at a Surefire twisty tailcap. Top it off with a good forward clicky, and you have the UI I've been looking for (in something cheaper than a Surefire U2).

Regarding the low beam, I recommend something no brighter than a Fenix E01 or similar Nichia AAA light - that may actually be a bit too bright for walking around at night without blowing night vision. Medium and high are more fuzzy, but I always like the descriptive terms "Adequate" and "Excessive" for them; that should keep you going in the right direction.

I'm not sure about beam shape, but throw vs. flood can either be balanced, or a diffuser be provided. I'm going to provide no specific recommendations but you should consider the sort of task you're building this for. Anything like EDC (everyday carry, something you bring with you as you go through the day) or home utility-light use should be a bit floodier than average, while something for outdoors should be throwier. In general, you'll want something that can be flexible, and remember - it's always easier to make a light more diffuse than more focused. Adjustable focus is nice, if you can do it well - the sort of thing the Duracell Daylite or the Surefire Optimus claimed is way better than the way Maglite does it... no huge dark spot in the middle.

Anyway, :welcome: and I hope you find what you need here. Let us know when you have something to look at (or buy) - I know you got my interest, and everyone else seems pretty eager too.

 

[Gunner12]

:welcome:

I'd love to see a light with a optic similar to the LedLenser ones. Decent focusing, but I'd like to have some spill even at full focus of the light.

As for output, I'd like to see something like a knob combined with a forward clickie. Press to click, twist to raise or lower the output(smooth change, near infinite levels from 0.01 or less to what ever the LED can handle safely). Can be set to have or not have memory. Memory on is when the light always turns on at a certain level, set by holding the switch down and twisting at the same time. Memory off is the light turning on at the level it was turned off on. Changing between memory on and off is a quick double tap and click, light blinks to confirm the change. I'm not sure how it will be accomplished and still be waterproof though. Leef switch + hall effect sensor?

Twisting the tailcap/knob quickly to change output will change the output quickly(maybe quick turn = half to quater turn from full to minimul output). Slowly turning the knob changes the output slowly(maybe 1-2 turns from full to minimum). The amount of the output change per degree of twist changes with speed.

Output controlled by a very quick PWM (1 khz and up).

As for batteries, maybe a boost head for 1.5-3.7v(should work well with 1 Li-ion too), and a buck head for 3.7v and up. Or maybe even a head that does both.
Size, I prefer minimal size, not more then 23-25mm diamater for a 18650.CR123 powered light, not more then 20-22mm diamater for a AA/14500 powered light, and not more then 14mm diamater for a AAA powered one(I'd suggest staying with AA, CR123s, and Li-ions). Maybe even C cells could work too.

Water proof down to 10m, and maybe a dive light version too.

I'm not sure how much the above will cost, probably a lot.

If something simpler would be better production, development, and cost wise, then the focusing system could be removed and replaced with a reflector that provides a medium sized hotspot and a good spill. The switch can also be removed and made into 3 buttons with in a single switch. Click center = on or off. Click/hold left = increase output, click/hold right = decrease output. Double tap and click the center to turn memory on or off. The Mode thing can be removed too for a simpler 2-3 mode light.

I might not be able to buy the light when it comes out, depends on the price and if I get an intern/job.

Which LEDs are you looking at or have?

Good Luck!

 

[StandardBattery]

Just get me a High CRI light at inexpensive price that easily fits in the pocket and meets the basic quality and runtime standards of the avaerage Fenix light. If you can get there, then we can talk about model 2 with some nice bells and whistles.

If you're light is just going to be using a new emitter from one of the manufacturers then you're going to have a lot of competition in a short time. If you're taking a different route and want to go for quality in the first release then all you need to do is study the NovaTac and Ra Lights and you have all the information you need to complete your spec. Now drop in your emitter(s).

 

[AardvarkSagus]

I think for this to become a decent workable product within a year, you will want to go with a very simple "relatively" inexpensive well balanced light without all kinds of variables like StandardBattery says. Fewer modes are going to be easier to produce and produce well the first try. Better to initially have your name associated with quality and simplicity than with complexity and shoddy workmanship. Makes it easier to branch out later if you so desire.

With high CRI being the goal. I'd recommend concentrating on one or two models using CR123A or AA cells.

If you want a lot of reading material, go back and look up the initial Nitecore D10 and EX10 introductory threads. Those two little pocket lights produced an enormous buzz here on CPF and haven't really settled down since.

Even if an overly simple UI with only one or two modes were part of the equation, releasing at around that price point with similar models sporting a high CRI LED, flawless general use beam (fixed focus reflector or optic), and solid quality construction would be a knockout product. Your first 1,000 pieces might be gone before they hit the shelves. Admittedly it appears that the backing of well known retailers was beneficial to Nitecore's sales, but that hurdle can be accomplished in due time.

 

[Gunner12]

A good focusing system would be nice. It should set it apart from most lights, but that might cost a lot to develop.

Starting with a relatively simple and middle range product is probably a better idea then starting with a high end product.

Normal battery power(AA, CR123, maybe C, easy to find batteries).
Good output
2 easy to use modes(kinda like the Fenix LxTs)
If no focusing, a relatively smooth beam with a medium sized hotspot.
A pocket clip(backward and forward, removable) would be good too.

 

[Rob Brekelmans]

Hi everyone,
First of all... I'm glad I found this forum.

haha, it's nice to see that there are so many people with advice about this subject. A lot of technical specs. And keep on going. I'm going to use it all. Tomorrow (in 10 hours) i'm going to show this thread to my superior.

I know you're all soaked in the details and numbers about a Flashlight. But this is the concept fase of my project. The details are for a later stage.
Why would someone buy a McGizmo high CRI for 300,-? I'm looking for new purposes for flashlights. Maybe a photographer who needs just that extra touch? Or a diver who wants to capture the red fish perfectly on tape? A electrician who wants to see the diference between blue and green. Why are you interested in long use pocket High CRI? Stuff like that. I'm sure you could tell, I am rooky on the flashlight territory.
If the market is big enough (like 50.000 sales a year) it's possible we can build a basis system and make it adapteble for all.

Which stuff I'm going to use for this flashlight? Well, I work for a large company in the Netherlands, Eindhoven.

Going to take a nap now. It's 4 oClock in the morning here. (funny how a game of pool can get out of hand). Thanx for all the comments,advices and suggestions.

Sorry bout my English.

Rob

 

[defloyd77]

I'd love to see a high CRI dive light that won't overheat if used for a hiking light, polymer body, tighter beam, maybe uses aa batteries placed side by side, twist head switch or other waterproof switch and a good runtime to brightness ratio.

If you want to break ground, this would be a good way as there are already some EDC style high CRI lights, as far as I'm aware there aren't any high CRI dive lights. Going diving you'll definately want to see all of the wonderful and vibrant colors of all of the seas creatures and as far as I know you can either get this with an incan light and worry about runtime or size and possible blowouts or use an led and not being able to experience all of the amazing colors as they really are.

I know I'm going to be in the minority with this suggestion, but if you want to break new ground you gotta go against the grain!

 

[Gunner12]

Your English is just fine, don't worry about it.

The Mcgizmo is a semi-custom made with expensive material for the few. If it was made with Al, made in bulk with less of an eye to quality ans such, the price should go down. But that's not the point of a Mcgizmo. IIRC they are built regardless of price for the task they were meant for.

I'm not sure about 50,000 sales a year for the light but I'm no sellsman or businessman. A decent ad or packaging would help of course, that should be obvious.

Normal colors are pretty easy to differentiate with normal cool white LEDs. Cool white LEDs have a odd ratio for what colors the emit, which is what I think it making things seem more "flat". Warm/Neutral white or high CRI LEDs make them "pop out" more and is sometimes easier on the eye.

For the light, my non business mind says a 2AA light with 2 modes and a sideswitch should be good.

2AA because that will put less stress on the batteries, and give longer runtime with alkaline batteries. Rechargeable and Lithium AAs don't mind the extra current most high power LED lights need but alkaline batteries don't like it. 2AA spreads out the power over 2 batteries and also makes the drive work less then with 1 AA.(3v to 3.6v vs 1.5v to 3.6v)

IMO 2AA is also a good size to grip and use.

Sideswitch because it seems like the majority of the general public prefer that over a tail switch. Maybe you can use a switch like something a keyboard has. Click is on or off and starts on high(quick press, less then 0.5 seconds), hold down (more then 0.5 seconds or whatever time is good) and the light either goes to low or high depending on the mode it is on. Holding the button down from off (more then 0.5 seconds) and the light come on on low output.

Make sure the light is easy to grip but it also has to look good to grab attention(hopefully not flashy though).

Warm/Neutral white LEDs have more of a black body emitting character then cool white LEDs but they are still LEDs. Blue emitting die through a yellow phosphor, so there will still be some problems with a warm/neutral white LED but less then a cool white one.

Do you know which(brand, model, maybe tint and fluc bins) and what kind of LEDs(5mm, highpower, hopefully high power) you will be using?

 

[Strauss]

Just want to stress the importance of using PWM with a high-CRI light. If the light will have more than one output level(which I suggest), use pulse width modulation(PWM) in the circuit board to reduce the ouput of the LED. The reason for this is the fact that it will not alter the tint of the emitter like it would if it was driven at a lower current. Since you plan on marketing this light as high-CRI, keeping the tint constant will be an important feature to have.

And :welcome:

 

[liquidsix]

My interest in a high CRI light is for camping. Higher CRI looks nicer outdoors, and it's better for cooking after dark. It doesn't have to have a huge range, but a descent hotspot is good for general purpose wandering outdoors in the dark. A long battery life is necessary since you may not be able to replace/recharge while out in the wilderness. 18650 batteries are probably the best size for hand-held, pocketable, long running lights. Unfortunately they're not used by the general public. I find for camping, I use one mode for most things and then max output on the odd occasion I need the extra light, so at least a two stage light is good.

Some suggestions:

-If it is an 18650 sized light it should have a mode in it with enough output to last somewhere around 6-10 hours. This mode should be available immediately upon activation somehow, so either use mode memory, or head positioning (like Fenix TK11, or DarkTort).

-infinite variable brightness is trendy right now, but there's no way of knowing your runtime so my vote is don't bother with it. If you're going to have some kind of ramping then make it traverse a smaller set of output levels (like 5-7), as opposed to the 100+ levels nitecore lights have.

-I find the beam pattern of the Nitecore Extreme is pretty good place to start, its hotspot's not too 'thrower tight' and not too wide.

-Make it pretty (???) I can't tell you how to do that. I would suggest the new 2009 Surefire LX2 or Aviator for inspiration.

 

[kramer5150]

I also think you should dedicate a big chunk of your development cycle towards reliability and durability testing. Have your team of product developers really give the designs a thorough workout. Test to failure and validate your mechanical/material safety factors.

You should be aware that CPF is a TOUGH crowd to please. These are people who crush flashlights in hydraulic press (marduke), drop them off 5 story buildings, fill them with water and freeze them, drag them down the street behind a car.

Don't rush your product to market. There are LEOs, SAR, EMT and FD teams around the world whos lives depend on the reliability of their illumination tools. I think itcould be a great selling point of a manufacturer published MTBF test results for switches and tail cap threads.

You should also be aware of other companies patents. Pentagonlight was recently sued over patent violations by another prominent company, they settled out of court and Pentagonlight is now gone.

Anyhow, good luck with your project:thumbsup:

 

[Norm]

If you need to sell large volume go after the medical market I don't think there is a mass produced LED light that suits the requirements of doctors at the moment.
Most doctors seem happy to use the cheap incandescent drug company give aways.
There would be an advantages to having a high CRI LED light that uses common batteries (AA) with variable intensity.
Norm

 

[defloyd77]

That's a great idea Norm!

 

[MonkRX]

Although its been hinted at by a couple posters in this thread, I'd like to reiterate one point that has already been mentioned:

Modularity. Make sure your flashlights have interchangeable parts. If its already compatible with existing (popular) flashlights, that would be great, but not necessarily necessary (and may actually turn off users).

Make sure future revisions and versions are compatible with older models. If you're going to make a body, tail, and head, you better make sure its damn near perfect. Any design flaws should be ironed out. All body designs should be tested, retested, and re done all over again. All future and past bodies, tails, and heads should be forwards and backwards compatible.

And like others have said, don't bother gluing parts together. We'll always get them apart, every time, all the time. Gluing parts together will just turn off potential buyers, those who are new to modding or those who do not want to risk marring their new light because the head is glued.

Offer and allow easy access and purchase to spare parts, especially parts such as pills (without emitter and driver, if even applicable), switches, etc.



----

Another topic:

If its a high CRI light, this absolutely needs to have the "cleanest" beam possible. If clean is not possible, focusable would be good too. No rings, no donut holes, no major tint shifts in the beam.

... As for the price...

I'd probably pay up to $60 for a single emitter light, mass produced light. If the runtime wasn't flat or the driver was horribily inefficient, I'd pay up to $40, but that'd be pushing it. So make sure that the flashlight is super efficient with any power source it is given.

... What I'd use it for ...

Err, walking to my car, finding keyholes.. Most of my real uses are in mid to close range, with no real need for high CRI. Sometimes I need a little extra light when I take pictures, but thats about it. I use my lights to show off more than anything else, actually.

...

Anyway! Good luck! I hope you find our advice useful, and I hope many of these ideas we're contributing makes it to your final product. Thanks for taking the time to listen.