Alert: Begin Stocking Up On Toilet Paper
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DaFABRICATA
Flashlight Enthusiast
"Excuse me, could you spare a square?"
Just don't start tappin your foot by the other stall....
...
IMHO some (not all) enviroweenies are out of control a$$wipes.....hmmmmmmm.....:thinking:
They can have my TP, I'll use them for a$$wipes.:devil:
They can have my TP, I'll use them for a$$wipes.:devil:
saabgoblin
Enlightened
I believe that Japan is very big on bidets as well as many other countries. You'll use way less paper and personally I believe that it's a lot cleaner but then again you may be using more water. What is worse, clear cutting forests, or increased water usage, well you would have to do a long term study and IMHO, there are so many variables that finding the answer may be a little difficult. America is horrified by the bidet but once you give one a go, they really are great, it's kind like a mini shower for the dirtiest part of your body. :toilet:!
With less paper to be processed, we would potentially have fewer overflows of sewage that threaten coastal water quality and septic systems wouldn't have to be serviced as frequently. Personally, I don't want to deny someone their pleasure or comfort but if that comfort comes at too high a price in relation to sustainability, then your comforts may very well have to end. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but that is not always the way that humans work.
With less paper to be processed, we would potentially have fewer overflows of sewage that threaten coastal water quality and septic systems wouldn't have to be serviced as frequently. Personally, I don't want to deny someone their pleasure or comfort but if that comfort comes at too high a price in relation to sustainability, then your comforts may very well have to end. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but that is not always the way that humans work.
saabgoblin
Enlightened
Brilliant!:thumbsup:Just don't start tappin your foot by the other stall....
That is the kind of convoluted thought process that is frightening to some, who decides who's comforts are unsustainable and then acquires the authority/power to stop it? Will those who's comforts are deemed unsustainable sit quietly by while their comforts are snatched away?
thelightdude
Newly Enlightened
"Excuse me, could you spare a square?"
The shoes say it all.
saabgoblin
Enlightened
Please don't misunderstand me Beamhead, I am not saying that someone, corporation and or government should be snatching those things away, although they often do, I am more pointing to the probability in my mind that if the means of production are unsustainable, then the lack of resources will necesitate the removal of those conviences either by scarcity and or affordability.
"And will you try to tell us that you been too long at school
That knowledge is not needed
That power does not rule" Gordon Lightfoot, Sit Down Young Stranger.
Absolute power corrupts absolutly, I am with you there if I am not misinterpreting what you are saying.
Don't they call the folds in your brain convolutions?
In this case it's the relativistic idea that "might makes right." Someone else will determine your comfort level, regardless of resolve by your own means and aside from inherent rights as a human being, on the grounds of "a greater cause" being nurtured. Mind you, the regulators of such decided comfort levels will never be subject to these themselves, insight to the notion that serving the "greater good" was a falsity purveyed by totalitarianist ideas from the start.
A rousing cheer of +1!
Never let anyone tell you that they know better what you need want and require than you. The day that any man does is the day there is no hope.
If you want to have things squirted up your butt, go for it. I find the idea disgusting and repulsive, and have no interest in being subjected to some sort of anti-crap water cannon. I'm sure there is a segment of the population that enjoys such a toy. Does it pulse and vibrate for you also?
People ranting about this toilet paper crap have no idea what is really going on. They are spoon fed some talking points and gobble it mindlessly. I gave the links in my last post about the FFL and WWF, so to portray wanton clear cutting of forests required to have my Ultra Soft Charmin is ignorant of the facts, and indicates the mindless superficiality in approaching any complex issue.
Be sure and include a careful analysis of the devastating and large scale total loss of forests from major fires as a result of previous "well intentioned" govertnment intervention in your tallies of lost trees. I would be willing to bet that government policies have directly led to far greater loss of forests than the amount of trees chopped down for the total planetary toilet paper supply.
What's missing in environmentalism is actual intelligent thought and careful analysis. Corn production for ethanol mandates in order to increase cleaner energy supply is a similar example of goverment perversion of environmentalism.
There is almost nothing that government does well.
This thread isn't about something the government is doing. It's about something Greenpeace, possibly some unnamed environmental groups and a corporation that is attempting to capitalize on the concern, is doing.
Concern that government is pushing it is reading too much into it. They may or may not become involved later.
Concern that government is pushing it is reading too much into it. They may or may not become involved later.
Linger
Flashlight Enthusiast
re: bidet - yes, very common in Japan
Digital tempurature display for a jet of water, or using your fingers and rubbing at the orifice. which is more
Fascinating, especially given that people currently rub it off with paper.
Digital tempurature display for a jet of water, or using your fingers and rubbing at the orifice. which is more I agree at "surface level" but I think Lux Luthor's post, and many others, are accurate in that demonstrate the concern of fequent eventualities in these issues.
Radical environmental groups, are in the business of creating an "earth first" religion in which evironmental issues are elevated in importance beyond most everything, including sometimes, human beings. Radical politicians not in conformity with traditionally held views on human rights and individualism, along with elite political power assemblages, often being control minded, are all to eager to partner with any segment of society seeking to diminish the personal rights of others. Ultimately, the goverment acts as the manipulating agent for what was origianlly just a well intentioned emotional idea, with the negative effect being the diminished sovereignty of the average individual. What often isn't realized is that ideas sometimes have negative consequences far beyond their intended original "good" purposes, with the potentiality for depravity increasing with the size of the group exposed to them.
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jtr1962
Flashaholic
This is the real problem, not environmentalism per se. Moving towards a future where each individual has less impact on the planet without unduly sacrificing their quality of life makes sense on many levels, even economically. However, a small but vocal group of environmentalists have gone overboard in some areas. I happen to think this is one of them. We could save more trees but just doing something about the junk mail which almost nobody wants anyway. That's what environmentalists should do-go after the low-hanging fruit, so to speak. Find areas of waste where making a change won't severely impact people's lives, and start there. Junk mail is a good start. Going after businesses which have lights burning in unoccupied buildings all night long is another.
What I fear is that the generally good message of environmentalism will end up being lumped with radical efforts like this this, and as a result the public will react negatively to any type of conservation efforts, not matter how sane or well thought out they might be. A big problem I see all too often with certain segments of the environmental movement is a very narrow focus. They'll spot one area of waste, and then try to curb it without seeing the big picture. This topic actually provides a great example. Soft toilet paper may be responsible for some deforestation, but it pales next to junk mail, or for that matter the excessive amount of paper still being used by businesses in this age of electronic documents. Go after the other things first. In fact, go only after the other things. If something is 5% of the problem, why risk turning off the general public to everything good you're trying to do by doggedly focusing on only that 5%? It's a sad but true fact that many environmentalists are great at shooting themselves in the foot.
So in the end, everyone should focus on the big picture. That also includes the general public. While it's unrealistic to expect everyone to live in huts, it might be nice to see more of the general public willing to make small sacrifices in the areas of their life which have a large impact. In fact, there was a time when people would willingly do that rather than complain. While I'm frequently tired of radical environmentalists who would have me live like people did two millenia ago in the name of mother Earth, I'm also equally tired of hearing the general public whine whenever asked to make small, but effective and sensible, sacrifices for the same. There is no middle ground it seems.
Some people (like these extreme environmental groups) believe that folks won't do what's right and best unless forced to do so. Maybe, sometimes, that's at least partly true. But the USA is largely about personal liberty and many citizens don't like being forced. Besides, who says that the group doing the forcing is really right about the need for such change and the means used to effect that change?
Personally, I don't get too excited about how soft my TP is. And if I thought it were really that important in the grand scheme of things, I'd be willing to put my a** on the line (of rough TP) :devil: to make it right. Heck, I use lowly Scott Tissue anyway, so you can tell it doesn't bother me! But in the long run I just don't think it matters that much, and anyway these wackos need to get a life and go save some humans instead of worrying about a few trees... IMO.
Oh, and one more thing. If I ever get enough money together to get that new monolithic dome house I want built, I would like to put in a bidet. Seems pretty practical to me. Especially since it's so hard to get enough fiber every single day.
Personally, I don't get too excited about how soft my TP is. And if I thought it were really that important in the grand scheme of things, I'd be willing to put my a** on the line (of rough TP) :devil: to make it right. Heck, I use lowly Scott Tissue anyway, so you can tell it doesn't bother me! But in the long run I just don't think it matters that much, and anyway these wackos need to get a life and go save some humans instead of worrying about a few trees... IMO.
Oh, and one more thing. If I ever get enough money together to get that new monolithic dome house I want built, I would like to put in a bidet. Seems pretty practical to me. Especially since it's so hard to get enough fiber every single day.
Especially since it's so hard to get enough fiber every single day.
A teaspoon of Metamucil clears the deck nicely.
The issue is not really about the 100W light bulb, or the ultra-plush TP. It is the unexamined proselytization, threats, and sanctimonious preaching of the "one, right way." Instead, they could provide a simple presentation of facts, allowance for challenges, healthy debates, and a natural evolution of one's position, without the polarization of being vociferously branded as a [GW] Denier invoking the unconscionable stigma commensurate with denying the Holocaust. Simple education and authentic leadership ("Walk the Talk") that makes sense, has you want to enroll in doing things a new way.
For example, I had a major breakthrough when at a conference, a friend asked me why I keep the water running while I brush my teeth. There was just a question. They didn't try to make me wrong or launch into a maelstrom of indignant condescension. I had a chance to discover in that moment that I never thought about it. Then I realized I did it because I grew up brushing my teeth with the water on--but didn't really need to. My realization extended to using water outside, doing the dishes, leaving lights on in rooms I wasn't using, etc. etc. More importantly, it taught me a way to ask others the same, simple kind of question, leading to a ripple effect.
Empath, while you are technically correct with regards to the OP linked Times article, it starts with these seemingly noble ideas before moving beyond the Greenpeace groups--to actual Governmental penalties and restrictions of incand light bulbs, high gallon per flush toilets, Cap & Trade legislation, punitive taxes, restrictions, outright bans on anything the environmental lobbyists can slip into bills.
Very few people stop and question the fundamental validity of the assertions, nor consider the enormous repercussions of using threats, force, and punitive actions because they don't know how to effectively enroll and educate others. This TP issue will be gladly picked up by a series of governmental legislators, or written into a thousand page stimulus or reconciliation bill by a well-connected lobbyist....and suddenly, there goes your beloved plush TP.
When you hear inaccurate phrases like wholesale clear-cutting of forests, and all corporations are evil, it exposes the desire to force people into conforming with their myopic & ignorant positions. Again, much of the motivation with this TP issue (as noted in the NY Times article) is rooted in the silly man-made CO2 emissions causing GW (which has not been proven), and trees being CO2 scrubbers. Once someone identifies themself as a "full blown environmentalist," they become mindlessly susceptible to any notion. They will unquestionably accept into their "green boat" whatever flotsam is floated their way.
My fundamental objection with all of these types of issues is seeing a discriminating human being who cares about the future of their world, morph into a mindless enviromental automaton. I consider that phenomenon as 'evil' because the mindless person is deluded into believing they are making a real contribution. You build a critical mass of vacuous lemmings and they can do real damage on any aspect of any issue.
Big_Ed
Flashlight Enthusiast
My Dad told me when he was a kid, they had an outhouse, and used pages from magazines and the like. And then there was the whole corn cob thing...... Ouch!
And as for bidets, it would seem to me that if we switched from using mostly T.P. to bidets, we'd be using more water, and energy to heat it (I assume the water is heated), so there would be something else for environmentlists to complain about. Not to mention the possibility of job cuts if we needed a lot less T.P. Less loggers needed, T.P. factories would be cutting jobs, less product to ship to stores leading to fewer trucking jobs, etc, etc.... I'd rather flush T.P. down the toilet than jobs. Maybe that's a stretch, but that's how I feel about it.
And it I bet you'd surely get a funny look from the check out attendant at the store when you buy a shopping cart load of T.P.!! But it would be even funnier if you also purchased a whole bunch of Pepto Bismol at the same time.
And as for bidets, it would seem to me that if we switched from using mostly T.P. to bidets, we'd be using more water, and energy to heat it (I assume the water is heated), so there would be something else for environmentlists to complain about. Not to mention the possibility of job cuts if we needed a lot less T.P. Less loggers needed, T.P. factories would be cutting jobs, less product to ship to stores leading to fewer trucking jobs, etc, etc.... I'd rather flush T.P. down the toilet than jobs. Maybe that's a stretch, but that's how I feel about it.
And it I bet you'd surely get a funny look from the check out attendant at the store when you buy a shopping cart load of T.P.!! But it would be even funnier if you also purchased a whole bunch of Pepto Bismol at the same time.
Seriously - I'm out of work & helping a guy who's working to put together a project for a new tissue machine (200 tons per day) in NY State. I'm working on the deinking / recycling end. So yes please use recycled toilet paper. Actually it's very good. It's not like the ones with wood chips in it that I had in Yugoslavia 20 years ago.
Also - a recycle plant is FANTASTIC for using a flashlight in - it's what they were made for.
Also - having traveled in China alot in the last 5 years - I can personally attest that when you are in the plant (mill, factory etc) and the food you ate catches up to you - what you want to have are the cotton shoe polishing gloves! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Use once and dispose of.
Also - a recycle plant is FANTASTIC for using a flashlight in - it's what they were made for.
Also - having traveled in China alot in the last 5 years - I can personally attest that when you are in the plant (mill, factory etc) and the food you ate catches up to you - what you want to have are the cotton shoe polishing gloves! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Use once and dispose of.
