EEStor Supercapacitor could be revolutionary

[Ilikeshinythings]

I spent a better part of my shift at work reading about alternative sources of fuel, and I came across an Austin Texas company called EEStor who is reportedly developing "supercapacitor" technology that would create efficient electric power with amazing capabilities. I came across this blog where the topic was discussed a little bit and it looks very interesting. Has anybody on here heard anything about this? Everything seems to be very hush right now but if this actually does come out and become mainstream it could be huge. Check it out!

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/e..._ultracap.html

A typical Lithium Ion battery takes 3 hours to charge...which is a great step up from nickel cadnium, but still no where near the time it takes to pump gas into your engine (2-5 minutes max). The increases in mAh have also been very good from early rechargeables to LI batteries, but they are also nowhere near the capacity of a gasoline engine. The Tesla uses over 6000 single lithium ion cells wrapped up in a box. LI batteries, like most chemical current cells are known for catching fire...so 6000 of them sitting right behind you would not be good in an accident. They also produce a lot of heat as they are pumping out generally higher voltage. So, the advantage of this new technology is 10 fold on every dimension. Not only does it create more power, it holds more energy in a smaller, lighter package that does not create nearly as much heat, and it does so without utilizing chemicals that are horribly harmful to the environment (battery acid). I strongly believe this will revolutionize the world in which we live.

Standard: 32 KWh = 100 horsepower.
Supercapacitor: 54 KWh = 169 horsepower @ 400 pounds, so two 400 pound supercapacitors = 340+ horsepower with a completely LINEAR torque curve with 100% available at 1 RPM all the way to redline. I dunno how much the average car engine weighs, but it would not be hard to make a 2000 pound car with this kinda power.

Also, I'm very surprised I haven't found anything on CPF regarding this topic with so many prominent electrical engineers present. Please tell me what you think.

 

[asdalton]

Horsepower and kilowatt-hours are incommensurable units. The latter is a measure of energy, while the former is a measure of power (energy per time). The two separate questions should be:

1. How much energy (J, kWh, etc.) can the capacitor store?
2. At what rate (kW, hp, etc.) can the capacitor deliver energy?

 

[Ilikeshinythings]

Thanks for the fix. I don't know how to compare it to horsepower, but regardless, with a charge time of 5-10 minutes from V min to V max, and over 1000000 charge cycles with no material degredation, 500 miles on a full charge at approximately 9 dollars, it does promise to be very enticing for the car market. Now, the only thing I can think of that might be a problem is controllin that much energy and channeling it to all the potential cars that could use this technology. Electricity is as dangerous if not more so than gasoline. I wonder which causes more cancer?

 

[jtr1962]

Now, the only thing I can think of that might be a problem is controllin that much energy and channeling it to all the potential cars that could use this technology. Electricity is as dangerous if not more so than gasoline. I wonder which causes more cancer?

The only thing dangerous which could happen here is if the capacitor terminals are shorted. All those joules in a fraction of a second wouldn't be too pretty. Then again, it would be no worse than a tank of gasoline exploding. Same order of magnitude in terms of energy.

Gasoline definitely causes more cancer, even taking into account the fossil fuel used to make electricity for EVs. Electrical fields from power lines have never been proven to be harmful, at least at the distances residences are from them. Gas cars, on the other hand, emit most of their pollution right in the middle of population centers. This is the place where you least want it.

Overall, I'm very excited about this development. It's yet another nail in the coffin of gasoline cars. I can also see it being used to store power from solar panels.

 

[TigerhawkT3]

Supercapacitor discussions pop up here every now and again, but unfortunately, they just don't store enough energy to be really useful for these sorts of purposes. And yes, large supercapacitors are extremely dangerous because of their voltage/current capabilities.

One day, though...

 

[Ilikeshinythings]

Well this company claims they can get 500 miles out of a full charge from a 400 pound supercapacitor. That means you could get 800-1000 miles from two 400 pound supercapacitors & still have a motor that weighs less than a typical v6 combustion engine. And you can recharge from empty to full in 5-10 minutes. It does sound too good to be true, but the combustion engine made its huge advances in the early 1900s. New motor for a new millenium! Just glad I don't have stock in exxon or shell. Though I have a feeling they will probably make money from this some how.

 

[jzmtl]

400 pound supercapacitors = 340+ horsepower with a completely LINEAR torque curve with 100% available at 1 RPM all the way to redline.

As I understand for electrical motors, torque is highest at 0 rpm, but decrease steadily as rpm climbs, because the output has to remain constant.

 

[jtr1962]

As I understand for electrical motors, torque is highest at 0 rpm, but decrease steadily as rpm climbs, because the output has to remain constant.

Exactly. More like a linear horsepower curve from 0 to maximum RPM, except at low speeds where motor torque exceeds available traction.

 

[Empath]

The url
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/e..._ultracap.html isn't in a usable format.

 

[Ilikeshinythings]

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01/eestor_ultracap.html

There ya go empath

 

[65535]

Important factors dealing with any propulsion system.

What is the target output energy to the road?

What is the efficiency of the drive system?

What is the efficiency of the engine or motor?

How much energy will be required to reach the end gain?

How much power can you extract from the main energy source?

How fast can you replenish the energy source.




The only problem with super capaocitors is that they can deliver huge currents and huge voltages meaning unlike gasoline they don't need anything besides themselves to be dangerous gasoline takes out
side energy to become dangerous.

The type of electric motors used in most cases are near linear torque with up to 400% starting torque. The thing is the draw exponentially more power
while accelerating and very little power keeping a constant speed. Electric motors can weigh more than their rated counterparts but can be used with much less running horsepower due to the incredible amount of torque available.

Rock Quarry machinery commonly runs off a large diesel generator with large high torque electric motors which allows them to get huge torque to start the process then momentum takes it from there.


The next bread of racecars will be capacitor powered suer cars. Electric not only is environmentally friendly (if you can produce the energy cleanly in the first place) but it's incredibly efficient too. It gives low cost and high power.

 

[gadget_lover]

Last time I looked, Supercaps had a lot of problems to overcome.

First, they self discharge fairly fast, so if you put $9 of electricity in it and park it, it will run down over time.

Second, They have problems balancing the cells so that they can act as a battery.

Third, the infrastructure to recharge them is not there. Pumping 54 kWh into a battery in 5 minutes means a lot of energy is being sucked from the grid. This requires high voltage, high amperage or both.

I'm not too worried about external shorts. As I understand it, with that much energy will vaporize a carelessly placed screwdriver. Something will act as a fuse.


Daniel

 

[idleprocess]

As I understand it, the initial specifictions for the EEStor capacitor are based on their patent filing, which has certain problems of itself. Most of the physics folks that have looked at it are saying that EEStor isn't going to get anything close to 54 KWh from their design.

I remember reading that EEStor had a contract to deliver units rated at a more realistic 17 KWh to an electric car startup. This number is more in line with what the critics have been saying.

I hope that EEStor is not vaporware. They seem to be rather well-financed. Time will tell.

 

[Ilikeshinythings]

They are working with a company in Canada called Zenn Motors. The generous claim of 54 KWh will be more like 17 for this car, which is hardly a car..more a golf cart. Regardless, IF they do achieve their goals and their stated output, I think it could open the flood gates. I guess we'll have to settle for the 900 pound, 6000+ cell LIon battery of the Tesla Roadster for now!

 

[idleprocess]

First, they self discharge fairly fast, so if you put $9 of electricity in it and park it, it will run down over time.

Second, They have problems balancing the cells so that they can act as a battery.

Everything I've heard about EEstor indicates that they have these problems solved. Of course, they're not exactly rolling off the production lines just yet either...

Third, the infrastructure to recharge them is not there. Pumping 54 kWh into a battery in 5 minutes means a lot of energy is being sucked from the grid. This requires high voltage, high amperage or both.

I don't think anyone is seriously proposing fast-charging as the solution for recharging EVs. Even if the grid were built to handle it for fast-charging at, say, gas stations, the cables and contact points would be immense. There would likely be tens of kilowatts of waste heat to deal with as well...

Slow-charging could be done in 6-8 hours with a 240V/40A circuit assuming a 54 KWh pack. That load would be right up there with an electric dryer or air conditioning compressor. I always find it amusing that people fret over the load that EVs would place on the grid but ignore the other major ever-increasing loads...

If you can charge it in 5 minutes, you can charge it just as easily in 5 hours.

 

[Ilikeshinythings]

it will be just like the old days when people pumped your gas FOR you but they will pump your juice instead! At least it wouldn't be flammable like gasoline..