Is anyone else interested in incandescent because of the lack of blue spectrum that is even in warm LEDs?

alpg88

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Hey, up to 87% of Americans used to smoke cigarettes. That didn't work out so well.

I don't see where incan bulbs are harmful after 100+ years of mankind using them. But so far LED bulbs seem to have some issues like Dr Jones is saying. We'll see.

Like I said previously, the blue light doesn't seem to bother me. Nor does PWM. I still have some bulbs in my house. Some curly fries and flourescents too. Light is light to me. Now as bulbs, curly fries and flourescents quit I replace them with LED's mostly. They're cheap and last a long time.
Yep the same way they now eat processed food, it does not work out well now, yet they still eat it, go figure.
Dangers of smoking was know by doctors since very beginning, it was actually a doctor who invented a hookah. to lessen harmful effect, cuz he could not convince people that smoking is bad. Hitler waged war on smoking and had extensive antismoking campaign among nazi officers and generals.
So it is not a lack of knowledge, but force of habit, and anchoring effect. as well as corporate greed. and marketing
Dr jones just voiced his opinion, there is no study that finds led lighting (by itself) is in any way harmful. high frequency flicker, otoh, is.
 

jtr1962

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Unfortunately for some reason, people bring up politics when we're discussing lighting. Which is so American. Lighting shouldn't have political sides.
And ya, total free market capitalism would have most of the people on this forum working in a silica mine with no mask. Living in a hut and eating grubs. Government mandate keep a check on runaway capitalism. Everyone complains about how expensive everything is. Especially food. That's unfettered capitalism
That's exactly what pure capitalism with no safety valves gravitates towards. It's not pretty. The times in history when we've allowed it things were only better for those on top of the food chain. Fun fact-people actually had way more free time even back in the stone age days. Capitalism sucks the most limited resource people have, time, away in droves.
Regardless of politics, leds are just better. I prefer incans, but leds are better. I haven't changed a bulb in my house in over 6 years. If you can get the same luminosity from 6 w as you could 60 w before, that's not liberal propaganda. That's better tech. Just like my iPhone is better than a rotary phone. My e-bike is better than the 2 stroke kits. My pellet grill is better than a trench dug in the ground filled with palm fronds.
That's why it annoys me when some people are against these things solely because they're perceived as being a product of the left, even if that's demonstrably not true. I get avoiding a new type of product if it just doesn't meet your needs, but that should be the only reason.

I bought 60W equivalents for the entry fixture which use only 4W. 50K lifetime also. Like you said, it's just plain better. Over their lifetime, these bulbs will save 2,800 kW-hr of electricity costing me about $720. They cost me $6 each. Well worth it.
 

jtr1962

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Hey, up to 87% of Americans used to smoke cigarettes. That didn't work out so well.
True but I doubt many of those people gave smoking any kind of cost/benefit analysis.
I don't see where incan bulbs are harmful after 100+ years of mankind using them. But so far LED bulbs seem to have some issues like Dr Jones is saying. We'll see.
Incans aren't being phased out because they're harmful. They're being phased out because something with greater efficiency and lifetime came along. In fact, with LEDs you no longer even need to make the light source replaceable. That gives you a lot more freedom in fixture design.

Like I said previously, the blue light doesn't seem to bother me. Nor does PWM. I still have some bulbs in my house. Some curly fries and flourescents too. Light is light to me. Now as bulbs, curly fries and flourescents quit I replace them with LED's mostly. They're cheap and last a long time.
120 Hz flicker isn't inherent to LED bulbs. It's a product of bad design and/or cutting corners. We could easily include no flicker in the Energy Star requirements. Flicker demonstrably has a negative effect on a significant portion of the population. It just shouldn't exist.

Most of what I read about blue light is junk science. You're exposed to a greater intensity of blue light from screens than you are from stationary light sources. Outdoor light of any kind, not just LED, does have a negative effect on wildlife. Not sure what the best solution there is. We want our streets lit for safety and crime reasons. It might be nice if it were possible to have streetlights which just come on briefly if they detect an approaching vehicle or pedestrian.
 

vicv

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Incans aren't being phased out because they're harmful. They're being phased out because something with greater efficiency and lifetime came along. In fact, with LEDs you no longer even need to make the light source replaceable. That gives you a lot more freedom in fixture design.
Your last point is something I keep trying to get across for surefire 6p (and its clones) led drop ins. Those were specifically designed to keep heat away from the body and cells. But people starting putting multi thousand lumen led drop ins in them. It's quite possibly the worst light ever made for being an led. Don't get me wrong. I love the 6p. As an incandescent it's a brilliant piece of engineering and design. A truly great light Surefire should be proud of. But has a terrible thermal design for led. The "modularity" of it was only to easily replace the bulb when it burned out. And conveniently to use a higher output when wanted. But with led, a new design is better. Malkoff came up with somewhat of a solution with their m61. As long as it's a tight slip fit. If not it has to be shimmed. Which loses the modularity. But he had to reduce the reflector to make room for all the extra brass. Which gave it a worse beam. Especially for the size.
Back to non handheld lighting, I replaced some 2x4 fixtures in my shop with new led fixtures. They're a much better design than an ugly rectangular fixture. They instantly come on in the cold. They're just a better light. And that's due to advanced tech. And it will never burn out
 

jtr1962

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Your last point is something I keep trying to get across for surefire 6p (and its clones) led drop ins. Those were specifically designed to keep heat away from the body and cells. But people starting putting multi thousand lumen led drop ins in them. It's quite possibly the worst light ever made for being an led. Don't get me wrong. I love the 6p. As an incandescent it's a brilliant piece of engineering and design. A truly great light Surefire should be proud of. But has a terrible thermal design for led.
Really, the same is more or less true for general lighting fixtures using bulbs. A bulb is just about the worst form factor for an LED. Poor thermal path, plus a lot of the light gets wasted due to trying to make it omnidirectional. But making LED bulbs was the only way to get people to adopt LED en masse for residential lighting. We'll gradually move away from bulb-based fixtures towards purpose-built ones, just like they did in the flashlight world.

Back to non handheld lighting, I replaced some 2x4 fixtures in my shop with new led fixtures. They're a much better design than an ugly rectangular fixture. They instantly come on in the cold. They're just a better light. And that's due to advanced tech. And it will never burn out
Yeah, I forget to mention the instant on. That's another reason CFLs never caught on. Took over a minute to reach full brightness. When used outside on cold days they never reached full brightness at all. LED on the other hand works better in cold weather.

I replaced the fluoro tubes in the shoplights in my work room with LED tubes maybe 6 years ago. I had to rewire them but I ended up with better quality light, plus less power use. I was even using high CRI 5000K fluoro tubes before but the CRI 93 LEDs just looked a lot better. Went from 192 watts to 108. The room was brighter, too. I might have gone with LED shoplights had they been more readily available, but I definitely wanted high CRI. Back then most were CRI 80.

I'll eventually swap out all my remaining linear fluorescent fixtures for LED. I like how you can buy fixtures which are virtually flush with the ceiling.
 

vicv

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PK told me he located the anti-roll shaping on the 6P where he did as a heat sync for the P61 bulb.
Because bulbs throw out infrared radiation which causes heat. That's why the head gets warm. But with led, the comes from the p-n-p diode itself. That heat needs to be sucked away. In a modern light, the pill the led is soldered to is usually threaded into the body or head of the light. So there's a direct thermal path. But in a p60 drop in, the pill is just……floating there. Insulated from the body of the light. The reflector will absorb some which is pressed into the top of the socket. But it's still not even close to as good. It's the reason surefire only made 1 led drop in that I know of. The p60L. It was only 80 lumens. The next one was the kx4 and it was no longer modular but built into the head and not removable. Output almost doubled just due to being able to get the heat away. Maglites are the same. The incandescent models anyway. The pr socket is on a tower isolated from the body. Malkoff and some others made some better dropins that were a press fit to the body and much better, but there's a reason new led maglites are built different
 

IMA SOL MAN

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Unfortunately for some reason, people bring up politics when we're discussing lighting. Which is so American. Lighting shouldn't have political sides.
And ya, total free market capitalism would have most of the people on this forum working in a silica mine with no mask. Living in a hut and eating grubs. Government mandate keep a check on runaway capitalism.

Sounds like a Socialist to me! Which is so Canadian. :crackup:
Everyone complains about how expensive everything is. Especially food. That's unfettered capitalism

NOPE! You're not even warm! The high cost of everything is inflation, brought about by the actions of the acting president of the ussr, er, I mean, usa. Shutting down the oil production, shutting down of businesses, throwing money to the masses of Americans, are just a few of the things that are fueling inflation. Then there are things like money to run Ukraine, and now the gubbermint is trying to send money to Israel. Someone please take away their credit card!
 

jtr1962

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Here's a map of inflation worldwide:

1699476341761.png

If inflation was solely of product of the policies of this administration then it would mainly be higher in the US only, not worldwide. The map above says something entirely different. Inflation has been a global problem lately, not just a US one. We actually have a lower inflation rate than much of the rest of the world.

Quite a bit of inflation is just driven by corporate greed:


If people want prices to come down, just start boycotting things which they feel cost too much. Lately I'm noticing 2-liter soda "on sale" is 3 for $7. Regular price before the pandemic was $1.69. Sale price was often something like 3 for $4, or 4 for $5. So I just stopped buying it. If others follow suit the price will drop back to normal.
 
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Monocrom

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Here's a map of inflation worldwide:

View attachment 52027
If inflation was solely of product of the policies of this administration then it would mainly be higher in the US only, not worldwide. The map above says something entirely different. Inflation has been a global problem lately, not just a US one. We actually have a lower inflation rate than much of the rest of the world.

Quite a bit of inflation is just driven by corporate greed....
The problem with that map goes back to a variation of the Old Saying, "Misery loves company." Only in a really twisted way. You and I are both fortunate in that we have homes where no one is kicking us out. You have a house, I have a co-op apartment. Both places paid off. But you have Americans out there who have worked hard all their lives.... Can't afford a house. And, I mean one barely hitting $100K in the most remote, scummy parts of the poorest states in America. Houses maybe a couple of feet bigger than what today is considered a Tiny House. Literally cannot afford it.

It's absolutely terrible that other parts of the world are significantly worse off, but doesn't change the unfortunate fact that there are elderly citizens in America living out of their cars. The so-called "Van Life" lifestyle that is very well documented on YouTube thanks to countless channels, for many; not a lifestyle. A very real need. Take what meager savings they have, buy a used van, used SUV, or very small RV; or an old truck with a camper shell. Turn that into their home. Lots of DIY, in some cases none at all. Some do van life as a choice. Shocking number do so due to living out of a cardboard box as their only other realistic option.

It's absolutely horrifying. Gone are the days where if you were willing to work hard, yes; you could save up and actually buy a house. Now, there are some who can't even buy a compact car. Little comfort knowing other folks in other parts of the world are worse off.
 

PhotonMaster3

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Hey, up to 87% of Americans used to smoke cigarettes. That didn't work out so well.

I don't see where incan bulbs are harmful after 100+ years of mankind using them. But so far LED bulbs seem to have some issues like Dr Jones is saying. We'll see.

Like I said previously, the blue light doesn't seem to bother me. Nor does PWM. I still have some bulbs in my house. Some curly fries and flourescents too. Light is light to me. Now as bulbs, curly fries and flourescents quit I replace them with LED's mostly. They're cheap and last a long time.
There might be fewer cigarette smokers these days but we sure have plenty of pole smokers!
 

jtr1962

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The problem with that map goes back to a variation of the Old Saying, "Misery loves company." Only in a really twisted way. You and I are both fortunate in that we have homes where no one is kicking us out. You have a house, I have a co-op apartment. Both places paid off. But you have Americans out there who have worked hard all their lives.... Can't afford a house. And, I mean one barely hitting $100K in the most remote, scummy parts of the poorest states in America. Houses maybe a couple of feet bigger than what today is considered a Tiny House. Literally cannot afford it.

It's absolutely terrible that other parts of the world are significantly worse off, but doesn't change the unfortunate fact that there are elderly citizens in America living out of their cars. The so-called "Van Life" lifestyle that is very well documented on YouTube thanks to countless channels, for many; not a lifestyle. A very real need. Take what meager savings they have, buy a used van, used SUV, or very small RV; or an old truck with a camper shell. Turn that into their home. Lots of DIY, in some cases none at all. Some do van life as a choice. Shocking number do so due to living out of a cardboard box as their only other realistic option.

It's absolutely horrifying. Gone are the days where if you were willing to work hard, yes; you could save up and actually buy a house. Now, there are some who can't even buy a compact car. Little comfort knowing other folks in other parts of the world are worse off.
I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I'm one of the people who has constantly been complaining about the ridiculous prices of housing in this country AND the equally ridiculous low wages people working full-time make. It wasn't that long ago where a high school graduate like my father could earn enough to support a wife and a few kids, and eventually get out of a housing project buying their own home. Granted, my mother started working part-time when I was old enough to let my siblings in after school, and full-time later on (first as a token clerk for the MTA, then collecting tolls for the TBTA). Still, that's a far cry from both parents working full-time now, yet not even being able to afford what is considered a starter house.

I'll even grant that inflation is merely an annoyance for you and I, but it's literally taking the food out of the mouth of lots of people in this country. That especially includes housing price inflation. For starters we need to get rid of zoning which is keeping new units from being built. Then we need to get the corporate investors out of one, two, and three family homes. These aren't "investments". They were meant to be places where the occupant was also the owner. I'm fine if in the process the value of my mother's home drops from ~$850K to under $200K. It's not benefitting me anyway. If I sold it, any place in an area I'd actually want to live would cost as much or more. A lower price means lower housing prices everywhere. That means more people can stop living in vans.

We wonder why many young people aren't willing to work hard these days, or at all. I don't. When you're still going to be poor working why even bother? The problems started long before this administration. The middle class were doing great from after WWII through the early 1970s. Then things started going south. After 1980 that trend really accelerated. Anyone who has real solutions to fix this mess, not the usual party talking points, will have my vote. So far nothing I've seen from either party inspires much confidence.
 

Monocrom

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Sadly, I can only agree. Especially with younger folks refusing to work hard.... knowing full well it's not going to matter.
 

Dr. Jones

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What's this mysterious negative effect on the health of those exposed to them? If they were detrimental, many millions would have died by now being exposed to them. Fluorescents, which have been used in offices and stores since the 1940s, emit shorter wavelengths than LEDs, well into the ultraviolet. However, even those emit a fraction of the UV over a full work day compared to being in full sunlight for a few minutes.

If you want to use incandescent all power to you. I don't see how anyone can stand being under their crappy yellow light but to each their own. That's not even getting into their short life and ridiculously high power consumption. I used to get really bad headaches being under incandescent light. The lack of a true white point will do that. I appreciate that we have alternatives now which are far closer to sunlight, plus far more efficient besides.

What's your plan in the extremely unlikely event LEDs have some unforeseen negative effect, like making us grow a second set of limbs, or letting aliens mind control us? Go back to incandescents, essentially removing a choice from many people which they now prefer more? That'll also mean building a bunch more generating stations, some of which will make pollution burning fossil fuels. No thanks. I'll keep my LEDs, you can keep your incandescents. Thankfully there aren't enough holdouts any more to significantly impact the grid. Commercial went pretty much 100% LED. Residential is well over 50% (that surprised even me).

LEDs are predicted to make up 87% of the lighting market by 2030:


If they were so unhealthy, this wouldn't be the case.
I love the ignore function on this forum.
 

alpg88

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If you love ignore function what till you see the ignorance on this forum, oh wait....
 

jtr1962

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If you love ignore function what till you see the ignorance on this forum, oh wait....
Starting with some of the irrational hatred of LEDs shown in this thread.

It's strange because it seems every time a real problem with LEDs was solved the haters picked another one to harp on. Here's the timeline as best I can tell:

1) LED bulbs are too expensive. This was a valid complaint as they were over $25 in the beginning, but now you can get them for a buck or two.

2) LEDs aren't much more efficient than incandescent. Again, another valid complaint but now most of what you can buy is 8 to 10 times as efficient. Even a decade ago LED bulbs were starting to rival CFL efficiency, so this complaint hasn't been true in a long time.

3) LEDs have poor color rendering. While not as bad as CFLs, this was yet another valid complaint which was solved and then some. LED bulbs of 90 to 95+ CRI are available. To my eyes these look better than any other artificial light source. That said, not every application requires high CRI. For many uses, LEDs were "good enough" even in the beginning.

4) LEDs aren't dimmable. Yes, a valid complaint for those who use dimming. Yes, the first ones weren't but many are now.

5) LEDs don't last as long as claimed. This is a mixed bag. The problems seem to be mostly caused by the drive to get costs as low as possible. Without proper protection circuitry surges or spikes may kill LED bulbs prematurely. Better brands which cost a little more are usually more robust. However, if you have large numbers of anything electronic failing, not just LED bulbs, there's probably something wrong with the electrical system in your residence. The LEDs themselves are actually very robust. It's the circuitry which drives them that usually fails.

6) Finally, even in those cases where 1 to 5 were adequately addressed now we have the blue light spike nonsense. The screens people look at late nights actually expose them to orders of magnitude more blue light than either interior lighting or streetlights. Harping on the latter is especially nonsensical as the best CCT for seeing at night is in the range of 4000K to 5000K. That range enhances contrast and peripheral vision. Go with anything lower you compromise safety. Besides, not everyone is affected equally by blue light. Those who are already know not to stare at screens before they go to bed. Also worth a mention that higher CRI LEDs have a much smaller blue spike, in some cases virtually nonexistent.

It's not the presence of a blue spike which might cause issues, but the total amount of energy you receive from a range of wavelengths in the blue area. Stand close enough to an incandescent, you'll receive more of this blue light in a few minutes than standing under an LED streetlight for an hour. The greater presence of longer wavelengths (i.e. reds) in the incandescent doesn't balance out the effects of any blue which is present. However, if you really can't deal with any exposure to blue light at all, guess what? LEDs to the rescue. Light your spaces with amber LEDs which have no emissions in the blue wavelengths whatsoever. No other light source besides low-pressure sodium can make that claim.
 

alpg88

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there are always people like this every time something new replaces the old, in every aspect of our lives. it is normal.
 

jtr1962

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there are always people like this every time something new replaces the old, in every aspect of our lives. it is normal.
Yes, I know that. It happened when automobiles replaced horses, when we got rid of steam locomotives, when we went from candles to electric lighting, etc. I'll never dismiss VALID criticisms of new technology. For some people, until new tech reaches a certain state of development and efficiency of mass production it just won't work. But there are those who'll keep coming up with reasons even after all the major problems are solved.
 

vicv

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I still find it amusing that some people will shout hatred to their dying breath about "I'll never ever buy a led lightbulb. They can pull my last incandescent from my cold, dead hands." Yet will espouse amazingness at their newest handheld led flashlight. Right here in the forum. I'm not saying it's attention seeking….. but it is attention seeking. My father in law is like this.
 

bykfixer

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I still find it amusing that some people will shout hatred to their dying breath about "I'll never ever buy a led lightbulb. They can pull my last incandescent from my cold, dead hands." Yet will espouse amazingness at their newest handheld led flashlight. <snip>
My father in law is like this.
My pa n law is too.
He says he hates LED house bulbs but uses them because it lowers his electric bill.
 
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