Is anyone else interested in incandescent because of the lack of blue spectrum that is even in warm LEDs?

Dave_H

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Sounds like a Socialist to me! Which is so Canadian. :crackup:
Not wanting to jump too deep into (OT) politics, but Canadian government and society has liberal and conservative elements, and a range of others; not a two-party rule which is just two versions of the other, in reality. One thing we have in common is we sometimes complain about governments a lot, with some justification, as with the overreach such as trying to control LED technology. OTOH the "let the free market take care of everything" with little/no regulation doesn't work very well, remember 2008.

Dave
 

Dave_H

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"The Lightbulb Conspiracy" documentary among other topics details how lightbulb manufacturers, going back a century, colluded to limit bulb life to 1000 hours. The lowest stated lifetime of ordinary LED bulb I have seen is 6000 hours which is to me and others I am sure, dismal in terms of the earlier 25k or greater lifetime claims (if indeed they were accurate). Most low-end LEDs are 9k-11k rated.

Years ago, Ontario government tried to ban most incandescents except specialty types, while subsidizing LED bulbs down to around $1 each, below the cost of production for sure. The ban didn't work, incans are still sold in many stores, even 100W which were particularly targetted.

So, politics creeps into everything but I agree LEDs are succeeding not so much due to market distortion but their superiority in most regards.

Sounds like the blue content issue among others can be a red herring, sometimes latched onto by LED detractors.

Something not mentioned often is safety. Try touching bulb of exposed 100W incan for more than a split second without melting or burning skin. Many LED bulbs get away with plastic diffusers which at most get comfortably warm. Granted, the collars can get fairly hot on some, in any case it's a demonstration of LED superiority.

Dave
 
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jtr1962

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"The Lightbulb Conspiracy" documentary among other topics details how lightbulb manufacturers, going back a century, colluded to limit bulb life to 1000 hours. The lowest stated lifetime of ordinary LED bulb I have seen is 6000 hours which is to me and others I am sure, dismal in terms of the earlier 25k or greater lifetime claims (if indeed they were accurate). Most low-end LEDs are 9k-11k rated.
This is why I think LED bulbs should be rated for 50K hours minimum in order to qualify for the Energy Star rating. Also note that I consider LED bulbs an interim solution. In new construction we can mandate purpose-built LED fixtures designed to last the life of the building. In existing buildings, eventually a lot of bulb-based lighting will also be replaced with those types of fixtures.
So, politics creeps into everything but I agree LEDs are succeeding not so much due to market distortion but their superiority in most regards.
Exactly. We tried similar subsidies with CFLs but they never got as much market penetration due to their drawbacks such as lack of dimmability and poor CRI. I suspect LEDs eventually would have succeeded even without government help, but the incentives sped up the development and adoption by at least a decade, if not more.
Sounds like the blue content issue among others can be a red herring, sometimes latched onto by LED detractors.
Pretty much. There is some validity to blue light exposure interfering with sleep for some individuals, but all the other negative effects attributed to the blue spike are nonsense. Besides, almost every light source has blue content in the offending areas.
Something not mentioned often is safety. Try touching bulb of exposed 100W incan for more than a split second without melting or burning skin. Many LED bulbs get away with plastic diffusers which at most get comfortably warm. Granted, the collars can get fairly hot on some, in any case it's a demonstration of LED superiority.
That's a great point few people make. Nearly everyone who was a kid when incandescent bulbs were common has gotten burned on one. LEDs at worst are hot enough on the collar to make you go ouch if you touch them, but not hot enough to cause burns. As we see more and more 150 to 200 lm/W bulbs even that won't be the case. They'll be pleasantly warm at worst.

EDIT: I was just reminded of another thing. Anyone remember how hot incandescent would suddenly shatter if got any cold liquid on them? I still remember this when my mother tried to clean bulbs which were just turned off with Windex.
 
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alpg88

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I honestly do not believe in bulb conspiracy nonesence.

longer life means thicker filament, thicker filament means more power needed, there is a bulb that is on for over 100 years, but it barely glows and rated 60 watts as originally labeled. Who would buy bulbs that make 20lm use60w for example, and last 20 years, cost of electricity, vs bulb replacement is the reason we had bright bulbs that use less power but burn out sooner. there was no way, with that time technology to have both. even later the biggest advance was a halogen bulb, a bit brighter, but still govern by same principle. common bulbs used to be very cheap.
 

jtr1962

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Yes, I remember the light bulb manufacturers landed on ~1,000 hours as it was a sweet spot in terms of bulb life versus power consumption. What you paid having to replace the bulb every 1,000 hours was made up for in savings on your power bill. In adjusted dollars, electricity was much more expensive back then. Perhaps later on the sweet spot might have been 2,000 hours but the downside would have been light with a more orange tinge. So they stuck with what people were used to.

With LEDs there's no such trade off. CCT more or less stays the same at lower power levels, while efficiency goes up.

That 100 year bulb barely glows. It really doesn't give much useful light. Besides that, I'm sure with robust electronics, plus underdriving, we could make an LED fixture these days which not only puts out a useful amount of light, but will also light for many centuries. I have one of the original Luxeon LEDs which has been running continuously at 350 mA since 2004. It's dimmed somewhat and gotten very yellow, but it's still running. LEDs have improved a lot since then. LED night lights I modded in 2010, which are on 24/7/365, appear to be about as bright as when I made them, with no shift towards the yellow. That's ~110K hours of run time.
 

Dave_H

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I honestly do not believe in bulb conspiracy nonesence.

longer life means thicker filament, thicker filament means more power needed, there is a bulb that is on for over 100 years, but it barely glows and rated 60 watts as originally labeled. Who would buy bulbs that make 20lm use60w for example, and last 20 years, cost of electricity, vs bulb replacement is the reason we had bright bulbs that use less power but burn out sooner. there was no way, with that time technology to have both. even later the biggest advance was a halogen bulb, a bit brighter, but still govern by same principle. common bulbs used to be very cheap.
Believe what you want. Have you seen the documentary?

The word "conspiracy" automatically triggers negative reactions people sometimes.

There are other interesting cases such as inkjet printer which stopped printing after fixed number of pages, despite being not defective. The guy in Spain revived it with a simple reprogramming of internal counter memory.

The 100+ year bulb running in San Francisco is also featured.

Dave
 

alpg88

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In 2012 i ordered new undercabinet lights for kitchen, but it would take few weeks, so i rigged up something temporary, a 4 foot aluminum ruler from home depot, 3 12v led arrays from DX, an old laptop power supply, and a dc-dc regulator from ebay that cost about 5 bucks. I adjusted it to about 10v and it still makes plenty of light. this rig has been on 24/7 since. that is about 12 years. those arrays are so underdiven that the ruler never even got warm, nor they seem to lose any brightness.
I never installed the lights i ordered, i returned them without even opening the box
 

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jtr1962

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That mirrors my experience having good heatsinking and underdriving. If it doesn't get warm, you're easily looking at tens of years of service, provided the power supply driving it also lasts that long. LEDs haven't been around long enough to verify this, but I suspect if some of us are still around in 40 or 50 years these LED projects like you and I did will still be going strong.

12 years equals a bit over 100K hours.

I have a VFD alarm clock which has been running continuously since 1980 I think.
 

vicv

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Believe what you want. Have you seen the documentary?

The word "conspiracy" automatically triggers negative reactions people sometimes.

There are other interesting cases such as inkjet printer which stopped printing after fixed number of pages, despite being not defective. The guy in Spain revived it with a simple reprogramming of internal counter memory.

The 100+ year bulb running in San Francisco is also featured.

Dave
The inkjet thing isn't a conspiracy though. It's a known issue. Like not printing black of one of the colors is out.
 

kaichu dento

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Despite huge advances in generated spectrum, even my best incan-like led lights don't have quite as nice of a tiny as an actual incandescent light does. They are close enough though that I can still surprise others when they see the color of light they provide.

Still dreaming and hoping for the same tint available in led as my E2e has. I kept my E1e and E2e not only for their form factor, but even more for the pleasing light they emit.
 

vicv

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Despite huge advances in generated spectrum, even my best incan-like led lights don't have quite as nice of a tiny as an actual incandescent light does. They are close enough though that I can still surprise others when they see the color of light they provide.

Still dreaming and hoping for the same tint available in led as my E2e has. I kept my E1e and E2e not only for their form factor, but even more for the pleasing light they emit.
100%. Though I've never run an mn03, my Ma-02 is still the best tint/beam
 

kaichu dento

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…no LED keychain light is currently available that has a warm tint and is night vision preserving low lumens except the incan solitaire.
That is covered by my Maus. Really great tint right out of the box. Some of my other lights have greatly benefited from permanent application of Lee filters.
 

lumen aeternum

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re cell phone light too bright/blue - can't you put a colored film over it?
re Edison touting "firelight equivalent" - great marketing bafflegab.
re man's reaction to better & better lighting - I strongly recommend you read:

Sleep We Have Lost: Pre-Industrial Slumber in the British Isles
Author(s): A. Roger Ekirch
Source: The American Historical Review, Vol. 106, No. 2 (Apr., 2001), pp. 343-386
Published by: Oxford University Press on behalf of the American Historical Association

AVOIDING COMPRESSION INTO A LINK: sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.2307/2651611

The above is a journal article which he expanded into a book. Turns out that man used to sleep about 4-5 hours, then wake up for a few hours before sleeping again. He quotes references in published works talking about "the first sleep" (of the night) and "the second sleep." In fine weather & moonlight neighbors would gather outside to socialize. Cheaper light led to hooliganism & crime during the night.
 

Lowglow

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I was a fairly early adopter of LED with SureFires excellent U2. I have a fair few LED lights now but if I drop some small item on my garage floor or in gloomy restricted spaces I always turn to incandescent to help me find it. When a small black grub screw has dropped and lodged somewhere in dark grey carpet pile there is something about the light beam from a incandescent torch that makes finding it much easier for me. LED can do the job most times but not always for me.
 

vicv

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I was a fairly early adopter of LED with SureFires excellent U2. I have a fair few LED lights now but if I drop some small item on my garage floor or in gloomy restricted spaces I always turn to incandescent to help me find it. When a small black grub screw has dropped and lodged somewhere in dark grey carpet pile there is something about the light beam from an incandescent torch that makes finding it much easier for me. LED can do the job most times but not always for me.
I was once like you. And I still do prefer Incan, but that's probably more out of stubbornness than anything. Some of the new LEDs that have come out are so good. The 519a. The high cri xhp50.3 hi. Whatever they're using in the Wurkkos TS10. The b35am. They're so close in colour rendering and tint. With all the other advantages like runtime, cell size and count, and brightness levels.
 

Lowglow

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I was once like you. And I still do prefer Incan, but that's probably more out of stubbornness than anything. Some of the new LEDs that have come out are so good. The 519a. The high cri xhp50.3 hi. Whatever they're using in the Wurkkos TS10. The b35am. They're so close in colour rendering and tint. With all the other advantages like runtime, cell size and count, and brightness levels.
I'll have to take a look at those LED's. I do like the 219b which is as near as I have got to incandescent and especially good for walking.
 

vicv

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I'll have to take a look at those LED's. I do like the 219b which is as near as I have got to incandescent and especially good for walking.
Ya it's good. But not that bright. Or able to be focused as well. Imagine the 219b but able to handle 6+ amps over 1400L and have a more neutral tint. And there's a glass substrate over the phosfor so it's super easy to dedome and double the cd with an imperceptible loss in output. Looks brighter because of the intensity. Probably the best 3v led out right now overall. Especially for Incan lovers
 

jtr1962

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re cell phone light too bright/blue - can't you put a colored film over it?
A better solution is to just dim it to maybe a few percent. The idea is to drop the blue spike. You can do that by filtering, but at the expense of having a sepia-tinted screen which makes things look unnatural. Or you can keep the same spectrum, but lower the intensity. So far the phone makers have favored funky yellow-tinted screens over dimmer normal ones.

Same principal applies to general lighting. Lower the intensity, not the CCT. Use higher CRI LEDs which inherently have a lower blue spike for any given intensity.

If any light source is bright enough, even incan, it's going to disrupt sleep for a fair percentage of the population. I seem to be immune to this as I have no problem sleeping with daylight pouring in my window, but others can't be exposed to much blue light before bedtime.
Turns out that man used to sleep about 4-5 hours, then wake up for a few hours before sleeping again.
Resembles my sleep pattern. I never sleep 8 to 10 hours straight. Usually it's 4 or 5, then I have to get up to pee. At that point I might be awake a few hours, then take a nap for 2 or 3 hours. When you're not tied into a rigid schedule due to work or school, you tend to revert to more natural sleep patterns.
 

Lowglow

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Ya it's good. But not that bright. Or able to be focused as well. Imagine the 219b but able to handle 6+ amps over 1400L and have a more neutral tint. And there's a glass substrate over the phosfor so it's super easy to dedome and double the cd with an imperceptible loss in output. Looks brighter because of the intensity. Probably the best 3v led out right now overall. Especially for Incan lovers
Thank you. I'll keep my eye open for a 219a equipped light to try it out. I always like trying new as well as old.
 
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