Ok now I understand what all the incan fuss is about.

[Seiko]

Before this week my only exposure to incans were crappy stock mags and surefire products (p60 and e series) So I decided to do a 5761 build on a 2c mag.

After the first night at work I'm not ready to put my LED's away but darn near. A local unit was chasing a guy that bailed out into a large expanse of desert, I was nearby so went to help go look for the guy. The direct quote from the local departments air unit. "Hes 20 yards to the left of the officer with the spotlight" Mind you there are 10 or so officers out in this field, and everyone knew who he was talking about LOL. Me with my little 2c mag.

I am simply in amazed at what I have been missing. Almost literally turning my nose up at incans all these years. So thanks CPF... or maybe not, my wallet is going to loose some weight because of this!

 

[RyanA]

Yep, now we've got that sort of power in g2 and g3 sizes.:naughty: Runtime may differ though.

 

[Benson]

Yeah, I've got a 2C Mag61, too -- awesome little light. What battery setup are you using in that? Mine's Li-ion, uses a custom tailspring to take 2x18650, 2x25500, or 2x26500 (when AW gets them out)...

Of course, giving up on LEDs would be going a little far -- there's multi-XRE Mags that'll match a Mag61 for everything except throw, and thrash it for runtime. And my P7 Mag is almost as good as my Mag61, IMHO even better for close-in work, with its broad, flat hotspot. But there's definitely room for hotwires in any flashaholic's collection. Welcome aboard!

(And hadn't you better update your profile?)

Favorite incandescent light
ewwww incans.....

 

[Seiko]

Yep, now we've got that sort of power in g2 and g3 sizes.:naughty: Runtime may differ though.

Actually.... I have a fivemega P60 size drop in with a 1111 in it. Just waiting for my glass to show up so I can use it!

 

[Seiko]

Yeah, I've got a 2C Mag61, too -- awesome little light. What battery setup are you using in that? Mine's Li-ion, uses a custom tailspring to take 2x18650, 2x25500, or 2x26500 (when AW gets them out)...

(And hadn't you better update your profile?)

Right now for batteries Im using 2x AW 18650 black ones, with downloads c ring kit. Waiting for my AW IMR 18650's to show up in the mail. I will make the move over to the lith ion c sized when they come out again.

I have a 2c with a p7 in it with the identical battery set up. So far I like the 5761 better, could be because it is the new toy, and im not being objective. There is no comparison in run time.... Im going to use the 61 for a week, and see how it holds up, then do a serious comparison to decide what will be the "big" light for work, and what will be the night stand light.

Ill never give up my milky room sweeper It will be my duty light till something comes along that will beat the p7 in a e1e. (dont think that will be too soon)

Yeah that profile needs to be changed!

 

[ampdude]

I'm seriously considering the 3C 1185 setup, just need a decent charger first.

 

[divine]

Great story.

Might want to carry a LED as backup in case you drop the incan.

 

[ampdude]

Great story.

Might want to carry a LED as backup in case you drop the incan.

I carry a spare lamp assembly when I use my G2, I also use a lanyard.

 

[Jackal-Head]

I am simply in amazed at what I have been missing. Almost literally turning my nose up at incans all these years. So thanks CPF... or maybe not, my wallet is going to loose some weight because of this!

Fair enough, there are some bright incandescent lights and they're comparatively affordable. Let's not forget that incandescent lights have some noticable weaknesses, though. :devil:

• First and foremost: They simply need too much power, requiring large batteries or suffering from short runtimes
• Most are unregulated (including Maglite), which means the rated brightness is only true for fresh batteries and rapidly decreases especially for alkaline batteries. (A Maglite 3D, for instance, is rated at 10-11 hours runtime, but will drop to 50% brightness after just one hour!)
• They're better at delivering extreme brightness than LEDs, but there are other technologies that are better than both (e.g. HID).
• Limited lifetime means, in the long term, they're not as cheap as it seems at first. E.g. the 5761 has a rated average lifetime of a measly 100 hours. Osram Ostar is a 1120 lumens LED costing ten times as much. So if the flashlight is used for more than 1000 hours, the LED will be cheaper. Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature from hour one as well as reduced power uptake.
• Color temperature is way too low for my taste. Building an incandescent light with the same color temperature as the sun is not feasible, however, as it would have to be as hot as the surface of the sun.

 

[Phaserburn]

An easy to do and yet under the radar setup:

WF-500 (got mine for $25; very good build quality), LF bulb (around $18, IIRC), UCL (optional; around 6?). Using 2x18650s (regular AWs), this light screams. Great beam, throw is very good. Its around a 3A draw, so it is equal to many of the WA bulbs. If you already have the cells, this setup is under 50, and it's a really nice one.

 

[Benson]

• Limited lifetime means, in the long term, they're not as cheap as it seems at first. E.g. the 5761 has a rated average lifetime of a measly 100 hours. Osram Ostar is a 1120 lumens LED costing ten times as much. So if the flashlight is used for more than 1000 hours, the LED will be cheaper. Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature from hour one as well as reduced power uptake.

Unless you run your 5761 at the rated 6V, you don't get the rated 100h. More like 5-10h, IIRC.

While LEDs are king for 500lm and less, and HID is clearly the way to go for spotlights, there's still use for the inefficient hotwires -- when you need a compact high-output light, an HID ballast simply doesn't fit (yet). The 2C Mag and the 3xIMR16340 rigs are among the lowest-end practical options in this range, and it goes up to at least 3D Mags before the 24 and 35W HIDs are unambiguously superior.

Now with a few more years of work on scaling HIDs down and LEDs up, this niche may be eroded away to where hotwires are only toys (if very nice and affordable toys ), but for now they are the most practical option for certain uses.

 

[325addict]

@ Jackal-head:

you wrote: "Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature".

To me, this is the biggest DIS-advantage to LEDs. That angry, blueish-white color that is completely useless in dark & wet woods.... color rendition is ZERO, everything seems like a black&white world.... you very quickly grab an incan here.

The "unregulated" problem can largely be forgotten when you don't use alkalines. Use NiMH or Li-ion instead, these batteries will sustain their voltage for 90% of the runtime pretty well.

Although I'm not a real fan of LED-lights, I just bought a Wolf-Eyes with an MCE-LED from the German eBay-site. Let's see if that 500+ Lumens it seems to give blasts away my pre-occupied mind

Until now, I'm totally an incan-guy. I take all the disadvantages, just to enjoy that ONE advantage: the color of the light....
Only yesterday I realized (again) what a great light the Wolf Eyes M90 rattlesnake is.... servicing a large mixing console in an OB-van is hard to do without the right light :green:
I use the 9V lamp and two unprotected 18650s in it.

Timmo.

 

[Patriot]

• First and foremost: They simply need too much power, requiring large batteries or suffering from short runtimes
• Most are unregulated (including Maglite), which means the rated brightness is only true for fresh batteries and rapidly decreases especially for alkaline batteries. (A Maglite 3D, for instance, is rated at 10-11 hours runtime, but will drop to 50% brightness after just one hour!)
• They're better at delivering extreme brightness than LEDs, but there are other technologies that are better than both (e.g. HID).
• Limited lifetime means, in the long term, they're not as cheap as it seems at first. E.g. the 5761 has a rated average lifetime of a measly 100 hours. Osram Ostar is a 1120 lumens LED costing ten times as much. So if the flashlight is used for more than 1000 hours, the LED will be cheaper. Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature from hour one as well as reduced power uptake.
• Color temperature is way too low for my taste. Building an incandescent light with the same color temperature as the sun is not feasible, however, as it would have to be as hot as the surface of the sun.

LED, Incan, HID, Short-arc, I love them all.

Regarding your first point, that only matters when long run-time is a factor. Many or even most of the times I use a light run-time is not a factor. When it is a use a more efficient format.

Most of us enthusiast have long ago moved away from alkalines. I'm running almost everything on li-ion now so I don't see the second bullet point as a real problem either.

The problem with most HID's is size. The lower wattage HID's are usually smaller but less efficient with regards to lumens per watt. To have a 25-35W HID that runs for an hour or more requires a sizable battery and sometimes I just don't need 2000..3000...5000 lumens to accomplish what I'm doing. Also there is the issue of warm up time with HID that isn't there with Incan and LED.

Normally I'm not personally running my incans for many hundreds of hours so the bulb issue isn't a problem for me. It kind of ties in to the first point since I'm just not running the incans for hours at a time.

The color temperature is the strongest point of the incan which really sets it apart from the 6000K range LEDs. Obviously warmer LED's are more readily available but they still lack the wide color spectrum of the incan and the appearance really is different. A nice white incan is always just very soothing on the eyes and gives me a comfortable feeling especially when I'm out in the woods at night. I much prefer warm incans and HID's above any of the LED's I own since objects seem to take on a very 3D appearance instead of the flat gray blue than many LED's provide. This is especially noticalbe on the forest floor where all the rocks, pine cones and needles seem to take on the same hue even with a nice Q5 although the effect is somewhat tamed. In any case I would have to say that 6500K is just terrible imo...so at no time would that ever be a "plus" for me.

 

[Jackal-Head]

To me, this is the biggest DIS-advantage to LEDs. That angry, blueish-white color that is completely useless in dark & wet woods.... color rendition is ZERO, everything seems like a black&white world.... you very quickly grab an incan here.

Many cheap standard LEDs produce such a color (as observed when shone upon a surface that appears white in daylight), but quality high-powered LEDs do not. Also, they will render red and orange with high saturation but without ridiculously exaggerating the saturation like incandescent lights do.

The "unregulated" problem can largely be forgotten when you don't use alkalines. Use NiMH or Li-ion instead, these batteries will sustain their voltage for 90% of the runtime pretty well.

Unregulated incandescent lights will not even come close to their full brightness on NiMH batteries though, so a 200lm unregulated light may be dimmer than a 120lm regulated light. Incand efficiency decreases at lower levels (lower current = lower temperature = less lumens per Watt as visible output decreases overproportionally compared to the power uptake), thus pronouncing the effect (OTOH you do get higher lamp lifetime as it's the temperature that kills it). LEDs are more efficient at lower levels, so lack of regulation is not as easily noticeable for LED lamps.

Although I'm not a real fan of LED-lights, I just bought a Wolf-Eyes with an MCE-LED from the German eBay-site. Let's see if that 500+ Lumens it seems to give blasts away my pre-occupied mind

Even if it won't change your preferences, I'm pretty sure it will give you a new point of view about LEDs.

 

[Jackal-Head]

(snip)

Normally I'm not personally running my incans for many hundreds of hours so the bulb issue isn't a problem for me. It kind of ties in to the first point since I'm just not running the incans for hours at a time.

The color temperature is the strongest point of the incan which really sets it apart from the 6000K range LEDs. Obviously warmer LED's are more readily available but they still lack the wide color spectrum of the incan and the appearance really is different. A nice white incan is always just very soothing on the eyes and gives me a comfortable feeling especially when I'm out in the woods at night. I much prefer warm incans and HID's above any of the LED's I own since objects seem to take on a very 3D appearance instead of the flat gray blue than many LED's provide. This is especially noticalbe on the forest floor where all the rocks, pine cones and needles seem to take on the same hue even with a nice Q5 although the effect is somewhat tamed. In any case I would have to say that 6500K is just terrible imo...so at no time would that ever be a "plus" for me.

Fair enough, if you don't use your torches much, then runtime and longevity are less important, and purchase price is more relevant with respect to the TCO (total cost of ownership). The 500 to let's say 1500lm gap is already being closed by LED torches, however they generally cost well over a hundred dollars.

About the light color... de gustibus non est disputandum but I highly prefer the color rendition of neutral white LEDs over incand because it's much closer to daylight. This is sort of ironic because, unlike the sun, LEDs do not produce blackbody radiation, but as I said before, making an incandescent torch with the color of sunlight (actually 5700K or so I hear) is presently technically infeasible. Anyway, light bulbs render whites with a strong orange or yellow tint, they exaggerate the saturation and brightness of red and orange at the expense of green and blue. It can be very hard to tell dark green from dark blue from anthracite in their light. A high-quality neutral white LED at the same lumens will on the other hand give me a pretty accurate idea of the color of an object in daylight.

Here's a video that shows how superior the new Fenix TK40 drool is over the PD30 not only in brightness but also color rendition of vegetation. :wow: Remember to check the HQ option if you have broadband.

 

[325addict]

@ Jackal-head:
my experiences on color rendition are based upon Q5 LEDs. I tried 8 different flashlights in the woods, among them was a P1D. This was, IMHO, terrible.

The best was a Wolf Eyes M90 Rattlesnake, equipped with two 18650s.

My boss bought a neutral white Fenix TK20, and this one was, frankly said, disappointing in color. My first impression was: "just as white as my SureFire L1!"
I had to compare them side by side to tell the difference. Glad my boss bought one before I did... I won't buy it!

I'm curious what the Wolf Eyes will bring... I guess, the light will be more white/blue than the TK20, in that case.... it will be fired once, then put back in its box and forgotten.... then, I'd better take an M300 or 9AN Commander (with the two lamps) instead...

If the Wolf Eyes with MCE-LED doesn't convince me, then it will be the last LED-light I'll buy for a while... until the UB3 Invictus is available, and maybe an E1L Outdoorsman in between. On the other hand, there are more than 10 Incans I would like to buy instantly....

Furthermore, I noticed that in Q5-light it is really hard to tell the difference between dark green and brown.... leafs of vegetation and trees (the wooden part of them) all have the same dark, unreal color. Just like watching a black & white TV! With an incan, you can see the difference between these colors INSTANTLY.


Timmo.

 

[JJV]

Don't want to start a fight here but couldn't it be considered trolling to come in and tout LED superiority in the Incan forum? I'm impressed with how everyone has kept it civil but haven't we been down this road a million times over?

 

[DM51]

I was beginning to think exactly the same thing...

 

[Seiko]

Don't want to start a fight here but couldn't it be considered trolling to come in and tout LED superiority in the Incan forum? I'm impressed with how everyone has kept it civil but haven't we been down this road a million times over?

Couldn't say it better myself.

 

[325addict]

Well, I don't think exactly so. Jackal-head is pointing out some very interesting, not-to-be-overseen advantages of LEDs in general. He is at least 100% right when he says, that LEDs don't suffer too much from lesser current when compared to incans. We all know, that with a 50% cut in current, an incan will barely give any light (if so), LEDs will still have OVER 50% of the light compared to the 100% current....

On the other hand, you are right, he is in the "hole of the Lion" as we say in the Netherlands

This may be the incan part of the forum, but some comparison is, I think, not always wrong, in particular not, when someone is pointing out this kind of technical wisdom from his side. I can only appreciate that, I happened to know this already, but if I hadn't known it, this would have been an eye-opener for me indeed.

@DM51: if I'm wrong here, and I should stay more to the incans without comparison to LEDs, I would be glad you tell me so. I am still rather new to the forum, sometimes I make mistakes, but I learn from these mistakes. Not so long ago, I posted a reply to a sales thread in CPF marketplace, that for $ 7,50 more you could buy a completely new surefire E1L, so I didn't see the point of buying it second hand for that price.... OOWWW how wrong this was!!! I'll NEVER, EVER do this again, as it is a severe infringement of the rules here....


Timmo.