Questions about getting a thrower SureFire (Turbo?)head for the new FM C-type body

[Kestrel]

Summary: Will LED or Incan SureFire heads fit my THROWING needs for this body?

I just placed an order for the new FM C-head / 2-C cell body and am now looking for a head to outperform the (wonderful) Malkoff M60 in throw (first priority) and output (secondary priority). At this point I don't know to go either LED (my first preference due to greater efficiency) or Incan (which I know has an inherent throw advantage). I am hoping for something like a "poor-man's" rechargeable SF M6. My knowledge is a bit limited outside of the following topics:

• Unmodified edc-sized SureFires up to and including my trusty C3 Centurion w/Malkoff,
• Malkoff drop-ins,
• and the advantages/limitations of LiIon chemistries.

Therefore, I know very little about SF Turbohead configurations. From what I understand, the ~2.5 inch diameter Turboheads might be what I am looking for?


Possible options, please correct me if I am on the wrong track:

• LED: The upcoming SureFire KL9 LED head, once it is available, should be 350+ lumens. I have doubts about it being compatible with 7.4V input. Would this design give me the throw that I am looking for? I am not looking for more output at the expense of throw. Are there other SF heads that would be of interest? They are like alphabet soup without the vowels to me.:duh2:
• Incan: Using the SureFire M6 head would be a significant conversion and expense: a C-to-M adaptor & bi-pin bulb, although this will give me both great throw and the great output that I am looking for (~500+ lumens). I would prefer something like a Turbohead for the M3 perhaps (as it will thread directly onto my C-type FM body if I understand correctly), but can I get enough output and throw with this? I understand that the SF bulb options in this head will give me great throw, but could be limited in the lumen department, and the SF LA's are considerably more expensive than a bi-pin arrangement. A bi-pin conversion would be satisfactory.

If there is no satisfactory solution, I will just get a regular SF C-type head, put an M60 in there and enjoy 240 lumens, decent throw, and ~5 hours of runtime. Reading about the M6 rechargeable options recently has really got me thinking in this new direction, though.

I have done a few searches on this, but there seem to be many SF head options that I am still trying to figure out, so I thought to post this thread. I am posting in the General section, but if this thread moves toward Incan, I will need it moved into the Incan forum & will ask for assistance for that.
Thank you.

Edit: Just read that SF will have a M3 TIR head by sometime this century. Might be nice, we may know more later.

 

[curtispdx]

You should consider running a LF IMR bulb in there. Awesome.

 

[Justin Case]

Many options, including:

OpticsHQ's new TX-3 TurboHead. See this thread.

Find a rare T-62 or SRTH TurboHead (both will fit on a 6P-series compatible body), install an N62 incandescent lamp, and drive it with two 3.7V Li-ions. I've done it with two 17670s (not an ideal configuration IMO), others with two 18650s (better).

Get a SureFire TurboHead Conversion Kit (e.g., KT1 or KT2) that fits a 6P-series body. Drive the same N62 with two Li-ions. Probably less ideal in terms of the "KT" TurboHead combined with an N62 lamp. The N62 really works best with the T-62 or SRTH.

Get a T-62, SRTH, or KT TurboHead and build one of the AW/Arcmania LED towers.

Use the Lumens Factory IMR-M3T lamp in a TurboHead (the issue is that LF clearly states that this lamp is only for IMR batteries).

 

[nzgunnie]

• Incan: Using the SureFire M6 head would be a significant conversion and expense: a C-to-M adaptor & bi-pin bulb, although this will give me both great throw and the great output that I am looking for (~500+ lumens). I would prefer something like a Turbohead for the M3 perhaps (as it will thread directly onto my C-type FM body if I understand correctly), but can I get enough output and throw with this? I understand that the SF bulb options in this head will give me great throw, but could be limited in the lumen department, and the SF LA's are considerably more expensive than a bi-pin arrangement. A bi-pin conversion would be satisfactory.

The Turbo head for the M3 is exactly the same as the turbo head on the M6. M3 heads (including the KL9) wont fit your FM body without an aftermarket C-M adapter.

What you are looking for is the KT-2 head that goes on the 9P.

 

[Kestrel]

Many options, including:
OpticsHQ's new TX-3 TurboHead. See this thread.
...
Get a SureFire TurboHead Conversion Kit (e.g., KT1 or KT2) that fits a 6P-series body. Drive the same N62 with two Li-ions. Probably less ideal in terms of the "KT" TurboHead combined with an N62 lamp. The N62 really works best with the T-62 or SRTH.

Get a T-62, SRTH, or KT TurboHead and build one of the AW/Arcmania LED towers.

Use the Lumens Factory IMR-M3T lamp in a TurboHead (the issue is that LF clearly states that this lamp is only for IMR batteries).

Thank you very much for this info. That OpticsHQ TX-3 turbohead looks nearly perfect for my requirements, LED too. The SF KT-2 conversion looks like a good solution as well, particularly while using that LF IMR-M3T bulb - the stock SF bulb in that KT-2 doesn't excite me at all, and I'm pretty sure that I will be able to use the non-IMR chemistry since the C-sized LiIons can discharge so much more current in a safe manner compared to the smaller size cells. Those LED towers you mention are a bit too much in the hands-on modification department, though.

Edit: Hmm, the TX-3 will still need a C-M adaptor. I was hoping I could avoid that. :-/

The Turbo head for the M3 is exactly the same as the turbo head on the M6. M3 heads (including the KL9) wont fit your FM body without an aftermarket C-M adapter.

What you are looking for is the KT-2 head that goes on the 9P.

Ah, that is good to know, there is a lot to the SF turboheads that I had not yet absorbed in my normal reading. And I so do not want to bother with the C-M adapter, as you have inferred.


Thanks, I'm beginning to understand SF-style Turboheads a little better now. I will be leaning toward the TX-3, but I can keep my mind on the KT-2 / LF IMR-M3T as well. I now have a lot more reading to do on these items. I can be patient until all the pieces come together conceptually, I really want to spend the time to get the setup that closest meets my needs.

I still don't have my brain around all the other SF heads out there yet, but I imagine that they will not get me the throw that I am looking for, compared to the 2.5" diameter turboheads.

Any more thoughts from folks, I would greatly appreciate it. This is only the third thread I've created in 15-16 months on CPF and I really want to get my money's worth.

 

[Kestrel]

Hmm, the LF IMR-3T might not be an option due to running such a high current through a clicky:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2677737&postcount=24
This new FM C-cell body has a clicky, and it sounds as though the current will be way over what a clicky can take & remain reliable. I very much doubt that there is any twisty that can be used on this body either...

Here's the new body I'll be working with BTW:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/216471

 

[Justin Case]

Regarding C-M adapters, ASFAIK the SureFire KT1, KT2, and KT5 conversion kits all use the same TurboHead and they all use a collar to mate the KT TH to the appropriate SF flashlight body (i.e., 6P/9P or 8NX). When you buy the complete TH Conversion Kit, you also get the appropriate lamp for the corresponding SF flashlight you are converting. The old T-62 and SRTH TurboHeads use a different collar, but the function is the same -- to mate the TH to the 6P/9P body.

 

[Nite]

IM running an MN21 on 2x18650 IMR with KT2 head, it is about 2.5 inch diameter has huge throw about the size of an M3T

its awesome

 

[Nite]

anyone got a pic of an SRTH?

 

[Kestrel]

It sounds as though the LED aspect of my question as been covered as completely as possible, my best options for that seem to be as follows:

• OpticsHQ TX-3 LED Turbohead
• The M3T TIR LED Turbohead prototype that is currently showing at SHOT 2009. I'm sure we'll be able to read more on that later, as there is a lot of interest in that item in the current SHOT thread.
• The Malkoff M60 in a standard C-type head

For additional Incan information (like suitability of the IMR M3T or comparable LA's), I'm going to see about getting this thread moved to the Incan section now...

Thanks,

 

[DM51]

I'll move it for you now.

 

[DM51]

I think most of the info is already there, from nzgunnie, Nite and others, and you've worked out a lot of it for yourself too. The SRTH could be hard to find. The KT4 is an M-fitting, so it can't be used with your C-fitting body without an adapter (also hard to find).

The Surefire KT2 head is a very good thrower, and would be what I would recommend for you. You can get it in HA Nat or BK. It takes the Surefire M3T or M6 compatible LAs: MN15, 16, 20 & 21 (also the M4's MN60 & 61, but they are higher-voltage). Better yet, it will also take the excellent Lumens Factory bulbs for M6 and M3T (including the new IMR ones) and on top of all that choice you could use a Fivemega MN bi-pin adapter with a WA 1111 or WA 1185 (or other) hotwire bulbs, depending on the number of cells you are intending to use.

The Lumens Factory route is probably the best one to give you the least trouble, as these LAs are designed for Li-Ion cells (LiCo and LiMn, depending on specs) rather than primaries.

 

[Owen]

anyone got a pic of an SRTH?

I could only find a couple of crappy ones that I posted several years ago, and the pics on LPS's site are as good as those.
Here's where they come from:
http://www.lpstactical.com/hd3t.htm

btw, be advised that these have a polycarbonate/Lexan lens that could feasibly deform or just plain melt with some of the high output bulbs that will fit in it. I don't know of anyone doing that, just sayin'...

edit: here's one of my old pics, anyway:

 

[mdocod]

Definitely slip a KT2 on there for starts and start playing with bulb options first. Reason I say this is very simple... If something better comes out, or you decide to switch to a different option, you can resell a KT2 very easily on CPFMP with minimal loss of value.

Super-Thrower class LED configurations are great toys, and can be used as tools in a few limited circumstance, it's often like having a laser with a strong spill beam, which isn't very practical accept in a few situations. I do like super-thrower style LEDs for lighting up house addresses, but that's about it... having said that, a TIR thrower class head would be more effective in some ways, and less in others. That's one of the biggest problems with LED thrower class lights right now, you have to choose between either a reflector based system, or some optical focusing system, and in most cases, this means either choosing way too much spill light (~up to 50% of total illumination on reflectors) or very little (~10% or less on TIR and other optical focusing systems).

If you choose a lamp like the IMR-M3T, or WA1111, or 64250, you'll be seeing over 500 torch lumens fresh from the charger, This is a noticeable step above the ~250 lumen M60.

Textured SF style turboheads with incans offer a much different user experience. It's like a splotch of light that carries with authority. These are not "laser" beams, and generally speaking, with higher wattage bulbs comes a wider splotch of light. The soft spill light is in a more appropriate balance with the central beam for use in primarily throw oriented tasks, but since it still has a useful spill beam, you can identify stuff around you without being blinded by the spill.

I haven't ever used or seen an M60 in action, so it's hard to say how much improvement you're going to see overall, but I own a number of LED modules that have been tested to perform in the ~175-200 "true" torch lumen range, and can say that even some of the lower powered bulbs I have run in the M6 compete very well with this... I have some LF bulbs coming in the mail, no doubt I'll be doing some comparison shots and I'll throw an LED or 2 in there for fun keep your eyes peeled in the next week or so for a beam-shot shootout.

Oh... almost forgot to mention:
As for your clicky switch in the FM body. I doubt it will be a problem. You might toss FM a line and ask what kind of voltage/current it can handle. I'm sure FM has considered that people would be doing 3xC>1185 builds with it, which is about the same current and even more voltage than a 2xC>IMR-M3T. He even suggests his 1794 as an option, which is a 7V 3A lamp, not far behind an IMR-M3T at all.

Eric

 

[nzgunnie]

The M3T TIR LED Turbohead prototype that is currently showing at SHOT 2009. I'm sure we'll be able to read more on that later, as there is a lot of interest in that item in the current SHOT thread.

Except you will probably still be waiting another year for this and the KL-9 if Surefire's track record is anything to go by. Well you might see the KL-9 a bit sooner since it was in last years catalogue.

And of course they wont fit your set up without the C-M.

 

[Owen]

Summary: Will LED or Incan SureFire heads fit my THROWING needs for this body?

I just placed an order for the new FM C-head / 2-C cell body and am now looking for a head to outperform the (wonderful) Malkoff M60 in throw (first priority) and output (secondary priority). At this point I don't know to go either LED (my first preference due to greater efficiency) or Incan (which I know has an inherent throw advantage). I am hoping for something like a "poor-man's" rechargeable SF M6.

Based on some of your comments, you seem to be concerned about how much difference there will be in output and throw compared with the Malkoff, so I took a shot with a couple of lights I have sitting here.
The MN16, rated at 225 lumens by SF on 2x18650 vs. Malkoff M60W rated at 170 lumens on 2x18500:edit: the second shot is with the MN21(the sun stopped shining through the blinds, meanwhile):

Keep in mind the MN16 is overdriven in this configuration, and would probably go poof on 2xC Li-ions. The MN21 is not much brighter, IMO, but the spot is much larger. The IMR-M3T from Lumens Factory looks like a safe bet to fall in between the MN16 and MN21 in output, and should work fine on the C-sized cells. I love my Malkoff, and may never use another incan in a 2-3 cell SF with standard head, but I don't think you're going to be disappointed in the combos these guys are recommending if more throw and output are what you're looking for.

 

[cl0123]

Kestrel,

Thanks for starting this thread. The following line in your first message really caught my attention...

...put an M60 in there and enjoy 240 lumens, decent throw, and ~5 hours of runtime.

...and pretty much re-ignited my interests in the C-cells arena. :twothumbs

Of course, I first need to rush over to FM's thread to do a . Incans fueled by C-cells make very logical sense in terms of performance per run-time, but it has been quite challenging to obtain the right Leef parts to complete a functioning light. I do not know about the FM's C-bodies offering until I see this thread. Mahalo! Wish you the best of luck in finding a KT2 head for your light. I have a KT2 natural but if I can possess the option of a WA1111 powered by 2 C-cells, the color mismatch does not bother me. Not sure if the islands are having a El Nina year or what not because our Civil Defense just issued another storm warning to many institutions. Yet if we have another blackout coming my way, the idea of a 5 hours M60 runtime is very inviting and practical.

I will be following this thread and hopefully get a few more lamp ideas and possiblities for the 2 C-cells. I was really interested in IMR cells and lamps setup last year until I read about the short run-times. It looks like your thread here may be taking me to a new, incandescent of course, direction.

With Aloha,

Clarence

 

[BigusLightus]

One example of a 6P with a new KT-1 turbohead.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/217537

 

[naked2]

What would be a good price for a mint KT-1/2?

 

[mdocod]

What would be a good price for a mint KT-1/2?

I'm hoping to find someone trying to sell a really beat up one to me for $10