What Does The Café Mean To You?

[Phil_B]

I remember when my old cat died a few weeks back and I posted my upset here in the Cafe.I was overwhelmed by the support and understanding of a huge number of people,all unknown to me.
Let's not dwell on the downside of this area please.
On another thread(ARC),I responded reasonably to a post about a movie,and was roundly attacked by people who should know better(given their "values").
So who's to say this is a rogue forum,I think it's enlightening.
On a lighter note,when I joined the CPF I wondered at the Cafe and Sandwiche shop too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Being a moderator of other forums, I'll tell you guys some things you may not know. In fact, I wouldn't know them, if I didn't moderate elsewhere. The moderators pretty much go through the entire board, so they see crap that you don't -- guaranteed. And in dealing with that crap, sometimes they get burned, and a little sensitive about having to go through it again. That effects their outlook elsewhere -- you may see a moderator coming in for little reason, but they see a pattern developing that they've seen before, and that turned into a sh**storm, and want to stop it before it develops. Furthermore, the moderators sometimes see normally-rational users acting like complete babies -- you may not see it, but I guarantee that they do. There's almost certainly a hidden moderator forum or a moderator mailing list for CPF, where the moderators sit and try to puzzle out why some users are suddenly acting like such jerks, in response to some gentle pressure from the moderators to simply keep to the policies.

I know that what I wrote above must be true, because it's true on every BB I moderate. However, I must confess that being on the other side (a mere user! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ), I also see what seems to be a lot of moderator action that doesn't make sense to me, even in light of the above, especially considering how well-behaved this BB is. For example, I've seen threads where the moderator has admonished people for going off topic (staying on lights, but not strictly staying with the original topic), or even moving a thread as soon as it drifted. Is there any BB in the universe where thread drift isn't a fact of life, and in fact often contribute to the overall board mission (or at least, not detract)?

All of that said, I would not have commented at all on any of this, except that Sasha's participation is kind of an implicit "okay" to make comments. Otherwise, as kind of a moderator-respect thing and a recognition that they have only good intentions and are doing their best, I'd normally keep this to private mail or a more appropriate forum, it's only an implicit invitation to comment here that led me to do so.

And lastly, although I didn't comment it on the earlier thread, at some point I think it will be necessary to cut political and religious discussion out of the Cafe. The mods will know when it's time, I think. I'd recommend that they err on the side of caution and do it earlier rather than later.

Joe

 

[Darell]

Uh-oh. Joe's got the goods onto us! You nailed it in that first paragraph!

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of any thread I've participated in where "mud-slinging and name calling and inability to discuss certain topics in a mature and rational manner" has been the case.

[/ QUOTE ]The only way I can answer this is let you know that you are very lucky to have avoided every thread that has gone bad. They are a very small percentage, but they do happen. Please consider that it may be BECAUSE of the efforts of staff that you are not exposed to the ugly often.

We're all human here. We aren't perfect. What we do all have in common is a desire to maintain the best board on the WEB. The more the members self-moderate, the less "pro-active" moderation you'll see from us.

(This comes, BTW, from a guy who gets no big thrill out of policing anybody! I do what I do only when I think it'll help the board)

 

[McGizmo]

I am not really a social person and never considered any need or desire to join a forum. At the behest of a couple people, a couple years ago, I reluctantly joined CPF. It is the only forum I monitor and am active in. I have come to know and respect as well as enjoy many members of CPF. Since my social exposure is so limited, I have found that I will come into the Cafe on occasion and read or comment on topics which aren't directly related to flashlights. However, I do recall a good number of at least tangentally related to illumination topics which have been either initiated in the Cafe or moved there by moderators.

I think Joe is on the money with some of his comments above and I expect that politics and religion are two topics which carry a heavy burdon for the moderators. Since the moderators all likely have their own opinions and convictions when it comes to politics and religion, moderating from an impartial position is intrinsically a difficult proposition.

There have been some outspoken members in the past who obviously enjoyed debate for the sake of debate. I don't believe that is what the cafe is about or what most want to see here. It would be easy to say lets stick to the facts and keep emotion out of it. On some topics, this works. It never works on politics or religion, IMHO. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

To answer Empaths question, to me the Cafe means a place where I can interact with some friends on subjects beyond those well defined and posted elsewhere in CPF. I can handle harsher language than is allowed here as wellas more heated discussions than have been allowed. However, I do understand that if members are riled enough, their motivation to strike backcan go beyond a specific thread and become manifest in their posts and interactions with certain others elsewhere in the forum.The fabric of the community can be damaged as a result. I have seen posts by some members directed at others where it is clear that there is some past "bagage" at play. This may sound naive but I would just as soon NOT know certian things about other members or what their slant is on certain issues since it is not germain to the main interests held in common and might even have some adverse effects in what otherwise could be meaningful discourse. We are who we are and some of this comes to light everytime we post. We don't necessarily need to know "everything" about eachother. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

I personally wouldn't assume the responsibility for moderating a forum like the cafe even if real money were offered! I would be a proponent for letting a thread run its course, without intervention or moderation. I also understand that such a position could allow for some serious damage if the members chose to let things get out of hand. A simple solution is to not allow certain topics from the get go. Politics and religion seem to be strong candidates.

 

[Wolfen]

A place to read the latest musing of such luminaries as Raggie, McGizmo, Darell, Sasha and Empath .

A place to keep up with the health of such fine members as TheLEDMuseum and LightChucker.

A place to wonder where the heck is I_RV_Too?

 

[brightnorm]

[ QUOTE ]
McGizmo said:
... I would be a proponent for letting a thread run its course, without intervention or moderation. I also understand that such a position could allow for some serious damage if the members chose to let things get out of hand. A simple solution is to not allow certain topics from the get go. Politics and religion seem to be strong candidates.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don,

That would be a pity because many posts in those threads have been interesting, informational and stimulating, as well as generating a little "electricity" along the way which can be enjoyable as long as the voltage doesn't get too high! For example, in that humongeous Religion thread (or it might have been a similar one that you started) although I initially found JerryM's posts a little hard to take I eventually lerned a great deal about fundamentalism, the bible, biblical history and scholarship and related subjects that I would never had known if the thread had been prematurely locked.

I believe politics has greater potential for contentiousness than religion, perhaps because most civilized posters tend to treat religion with a degree of caution and circumspection.

I would be very disappointed to see any subject banned from the Cafe.

Brightnorm

 

[Joe Talmadge]

[ QUOTE ]
Darell said:
Uh-oh. Joe's got the goods onto us! You nailed it in that first paragraph!

[/ QUOTE ]

'course, I also nailed it in the 2nd paragraph too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Subtle agreement with Tyler, after having sympathized with the mods. Old army psychology trick /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Brightnorm: it's not so much that topics would be "banned" from the Cafe, any more than LED topics are banned from the Incandescent forum. You'd simply use the correct forum for politics and religion discussions. Doesn't seem needed quite yet, but I guarantee you, it will be!

 

[Kitchener]

[ QUOTE ]
brightnorm said:
I would be very disappointed to see any subject banned from the Cafe.

Brightnorm

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. There's nothing more shocking than censorship. Judge the post, not the topic. A lucid, intelligent discussion on any topic shouldn't be so intimidating. If it devolves, then take action.

 

[Bravo25]

[ QUOTE ]
Kitchener said:
[ QUOTE ]
brightnorm said:
I would be very disappointed to see any subject banned from the Cafe.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. There's nothing more shocking than censorship. Judge the post, not the topic. A lucid, intelligent discussion on any topic shouldn't be so intimidating. If it devolves, then take action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brightnorm

And that is the reason that I truely beleive threads should remain open. Those that cannot remain cordial, repectful, nonderogatory, without vulgar, and without malice should be asked to leave. Even in heated discussions there is a lot to be learned. But a heated topic doesn't mean having to crawl into the garbage can and wrestle around over it.

 

[McGizmo]

brightnorm,

It's not my decision to make and I think I have pretty thick skin. I haven't seen any threads, short of one sometime ago that had the F word in the subject, that I have felt needed to be locked or removed. I am all for letting it all out in the open but then again, I can just walk away from a thread that is of no interest to me. If it's a train wreck, I have better things to do than watch the survivors squirm. If the thread says Religion in the subject, likely I will just move away. If it is about evolution or anything to do with science, I will likely take a peek.

But I am not expected to moderate or held accountable for comprehensive following of these threads! I think for the sake of the moderators, either some topics will ultimately be excluded from the CPF or a down and dirty "backroom" forum will emerge where the moderation is left up to the members themselves and possibly an ocassional breeze through by an admin with uzi in hand and no concern for justice; just erradication of a runaway plague! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

I think we have all learned things about ourselves, our world and a others from some of these threads which have not been warm, fun, or necessarily lighthearted.

 

[PhotonBoy]

Do any of the advertisers on CPF have an opinion?

 

[Kiessling]

The Café is a place to learn. To learn from intelligent people you respect. To learn things beyond flashlights and even about religion and politics. Let me mention again this giant and very very good religion thread we had ... a cool experience.
You also learn to interact, to discuss and to behave, which is very valuable.
And finally, it is a place to ask for advice should you need it, and you have a pack of highly intelligent members to help you out. cool.

I have to admit thought that I am for a very strict moderation, espacially on hot topics. I would never want a disturbance of our social structure because of some Café war going on ... meaning I am fully supporting the rather strict mod action on hot topics right now, even if it is censorship.

CPF is such a nice place and it should not be ruined.

bernhard

 

[jayflash]

The fact that the Cafe is so popular is evidence that most members, here, have healthy attitudes and outside lives. Most of us have interests, questions, and concerns other than flashlights.

If we didn't respect one another to the degree that we do, then our members wouldn't bother posting in the forum. Obviously, we care about each other's opinions - we have become an important, extended, family, of sorts.

There are no more important topics than politics, health, spirituality, family, religion, and sex. What else in life is more important than those subjects? Sex is the only subject I don't care to air out in this forum and I'm not sure why that is, but don't worry, I won't start now.

Business, religion, and politics are discussed over lunch at real cafes everywhere. Some of us have serious questions about where the world is headed in this, watershed, election year. We're at war and our futures are at stake. I don't think it's healthy to stick our heads in the sand and ignore the possible consequences that war might bring. Why limit discussion of politics amongst this cordial group who genuinely want each other's opinions? This is how we learn the nuances of what makes us tick.

It's absolutely wrong to think that no good will come of constructive criticism and debate. People do change their minds as new facts see the light of day. I know several folks who have swung from right to left to the center of politics. We acknowledge the attributes of incandescent and LED lighting - we can apply the same critical thinking to politics too.

If you want relaxation then avoid certain posts. If you want to probe deeper subjects - why not, that's how we learn. Politics may be a frequent subject here because we want opinions and ideas from a variety of people - not only left or right wing, party line extremists.

Nobody drags us into adult strip clubs and nobody forces us to read heavy topics, here, when we're not in the mood. Limiting the Cafe's topics would limit the information we can share with each other and thereby inhibit our, continuing, education in life's varied subjects.

 

[Empath]

It looks like there is a wide variation in what members hope for the Café, and what they think it should be. It's still best to recognize it for what it is, and unless matters change, use it to the extent that is acceptable.

For those wanting a place to relax and enjoy the company and comments of their fellow members, we'll still keep trying to hold the line. For those wanting something a little more permissive, unless a change comes along, it might be best to cast your eyes at a different medium.

For those wishing to more freely express their political opinions, a Google search of "politics forum" yields about 6 million hits. Of course some of the hits aren't necessarily forums, but you should be able to find whatever trips your trigger in there somewhere. If you wish to more freely express your religious viewpoints, a Google search on "religious forum" yields about 7 million hits. However, if you prefer something a little more disciplined or a bit more structured in it's approach, yet permits more freedom of expression, a Google search for "debate forum", gives a little more than 2.5 million hits. Of course if you want to pull out all the stops, there's tens of thousands of newsgroups on Usenet; you may recognize it more as "Google Groups", but it's the same thing. There's no moderator on most, and on those that are moderated, the persistent bypass moderation through an unrestricted news service.

Rather than have you think that my above statements are just flippant disregard for your concerns, I assure you it's not. I fully understand your preference to talk with those with whom you have established a relationship. It may be our souls you want to save. It may be our political beliefs you think could use a helpful little adjustment. Well, bless you. It's nice of you to care, really. Still, facilities for doing so on CPF just aren't there at this time. Who's to say what the future might hold. I did notice with interest that our boards concerns isn't unique among boards. Several boards apparently have attempted to provide a sort of free-form wrestling mat, and it appears mostly that it is with sanctioned debates with pre-approved participants. That was all found with very quick research, and could be a severe misinterpretation of what I found. I don't think CPF is ready for such though; it would be a behind-the-scenes nightmare.

 

[raggie33]

i wont miss politcal dicusions at all

 

[idleprocess]

This forum, like so many other forums, is largely volunteer-run, and nonprofit - and the effective property of the owner. As such, the management can set whatever policies they want for whatever reason.

Do not confuse moderation on a privately-owned medium with unjust censorship. Management has stated that they want a specific atmosphere and it's not something they should need to justify. Sound totalitarian? Not really. The forums will wither and die if the rules and moderation are too cumbersome, so there are balances.

I have limited experience as an operator on an IRC network, and I spent a great deal of my time dealing with disputes between individuals that seemed like dumb things, but were necessary for the smooth operation of the network.

 

[Bravo25]

Empath, I don't agree with all that you have said, but I do respect it. I will abide by it, and continue to enjoy the forum. It does seem however that some threads can take take a very quick turn into new directions, and some can see to take an immediate nose dive to the abyss of human degradation. I guess, I only wish that a simple message of "check yourself", or "please edit your post" could take precedence over the dreaded "Post Closed".
Perhaps it is not in human nature to allow such things though.

 

[SilverFox]

The Cafe reminds me of my family get together's as I was growing up.

My family made it a practice to "get things out in the open" every once in a while. We would gather around and discuss things that enhanced or threatened our family. Friends and extended family were invited and quite often presented "eye opening" views that made me re-evaluate my thinking.

I view CPF as a kind of extended family, and the Cafe forum as an extension of the family discussions I grew up with and still participate in.

Tom

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Bravo25 said:
I only wish that a simple message of "check yourself", or "please edit your post" could take precedence over the dreaded "Post Closed".

[/ QUOTE ]In my experience, this is exactly how it works for the most part. "Please edit" DOES take precedence over closing a thread, depending on the circumstances, of course. We'd much rather have members fix the problem... and we ask for it all the time. The results are mixed.