When will LEDs be out that you can distinguish all colors with?

[Cheapskate]

I tried a little experiment. I took a paint brochure which has colour charts for a range of paints of a multitude of colours, into a dark room with my NDI and used it to illuminate the charts. I had no difficulty in distinguishing the various shades from each other. OK, maybe some of the subtle shades of white/cream were a tad difficult, but that was all.

Shouldn't I have had some difficulty?

 

[saabluster]

I tried a little experiment. I took a paint brochure which has colour charts for a range of paints of a multitude of colours, into a dark room with my NDI and used it to illuminate the charts. I had no difficulty in distinguishing the various shades from each other. OK, maybe some of the subtle shades of white/cream were a tad difficult, but that was all.

Shouldn't I have had some difficulty?

Now take each sample and cut off a strip 1/16" wide and use that. Now retest. That is essentially the problem the OP has. I think the neutral/warm Crees are adequate for most everything but not for areas of a critical nature.

 

[tebore]

Interesting topic. So I've tried a small test



Please note that background on a sunlight shot was different. I've left white balance on auto but the pictures are very close to what I've seen with my own eyes. Cree 5A is pretty good imho.

I want to mention from a photography standpoint. Using different color backgrounds will skew color rendering results if you're trying to compare a subject under different lights.

Like when you use a red background your picture even your subject will look "redder' or if you use green the same will happen because your background will absorb more of the other spectrum and reflect more of a certain color causing the sensor/film to pick up more on that. A black or white background would prevent such skewing.

If the other 3 pics are using the same background then the 5A is really really warm.

 

[tsask]

That "neutral" LED recently added to the new Lummi, Raw Al Ns shows an incredible neutral "incan" color rendition. It can be found at the Lummi section of the manufacturers forum.

 

[discoverEDC]

Re: When will LEDs be out that you can distinguish arall colors with?

BabyDoc,
Unfortunately I probably won't have a chance to compare my mods against the Nichia. No McGizmo's for me right now and I don't think I'll order any of the Nichia either. It would be fun to get together with someone along I-94 in Michigan that had a Sundrop or Nichia mod.
I modded the Novatac myself, as far as mods go it is a fairly easy one. Take a look through the entire post I linked to you, if you have questions send me a PM.

Regards,
Walt

Thanks for the tip and the link, Walt. Have you had a chance to compare the Seoul to the Nichia? It sounds like the Seoul is a lot brighter. Yes, I do have the p120, which isn't getting much use right now. I wouldn't mind modifying it. My particular p120 is kind of disappointing with its cold tint. Did you do the work yourself or did you get someone to do the work for you? I am not sure I could do this mod myself.

 

[jirik_cz]

If the other 3 pics are using the same background then the 5A is really really warm.

Yes the background (boxboard) is the same on the other 3 pics.

 

[kaichu dento]

Re: When will LEDs be out that you can distinguish arall colors with?

Interesting subject. Most people prefer the cool light of the LED's today...

I definitely do not like the coolness and would much prefer to see warmer tints on all my lights. For this reason my L1D has the most pleasant beam color of my present lights and I have money in hand to replace my other lights to get a warmer tint.

 

[Cheapskate]

Re: When will LEDs be out that you can distinguish arall colors with?

I definitely do not like the coolness and would much prefer to see warmer tints on all my lights. For this reason my L1D has the most pleasant beam color of my present lights and I have money in hand to replace my other lights to get a warmer tint.

Might be cheaper to get some 81a photographic filter medium and just stick that on the front of your lights.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?pid=1000000162&sc=22008

 

[mudman cj]

I too have been happy to sacrifice lumens for a broader spectrum of output. This affects more than just tint. Tint is just the balance between the warm and cool hues emitted by a light source. It does not consider the distribution of those emissions beyond weighing the cool vs. the warm output. So, you could have a light source emitting very narrow bands of light that appears white but is not emitting light in an even pattern like the sun. Why does this matter? If the light source emits yellow and blue, then will a green paint made from mixing yellow and blue to make green look anything but green? No, but there are different ways for an object to appear green. It could appear green because it absorbs everything except for green. A light source emitting only blue and yellow would do a very poor job rendering the correct color of such an object. That is why grass does not look properly green under cool LED light.

Have you ever noticed that your depth perception of such objects seems affected? Our eyes are trying to focus on objects from which they are receiving incomplete information. Everyone agrees this affects color perception, at least in certain circumstances. But I go a step further in saying that an incomplete color spectrum also affects depth perception in certain circumstances. This is one of those difficult to describe feelings that can be experienced the first time you use an LED that emits a spectrum closer to sunlight than any LED before. It's just easier to see what lies ahead walking on a dark path through the woods for example, or in a corn maze (can't wait!) when your eyes are perceiving your surroundings with a spectrum of light more similar to the sun.

So, while filtering can change the tint, IMO that is not really the main shortcoming in most LEDs. The LEDs that I find most pleasing are ones that emit a broader range of light wavelengths. You have to see one to fully appreciate it. <Step down from soapbox.>

 

[spgrk]

Re: When will LEDs be out that you can distinguish arall colors with?

Usually they are incadescent, but some are halogen. They work OK, but aren't nearly as good as my SunDrop fitted with an acrylic hemisphere. That light puts out beautiful bright even illumination that I find even more neutral than my otoscope incadescent.

So what is the CRI of a halogen compared to the Sundrop LED?

 

[kaichu dento]

Have you ever noticed that your depth perception of such objects seems affected? Our eyes are trying to focus on objects from which they are receiving incomplete information. Everyone agrees this affects color perception, at least in certain circumstances. But I go a step further in saying that an incomplete color spectrum also affects depth perception in certain circumstances. This is one of those difficult to describe feelings that can be experienced the first time you use an LED that emits a spectrum closer to sunlight than any LED before. It's just easier to see what lies ahead walking on a dark path through the woods for example, or in a corn maze (can't wait!) when your eyes are perceiving your surroundings with a spectrum of light more similar to the sun.

So, while filtering can change the tint, IMO that is not really the main shortcoming in most LEDs. The LEDs that I find most pleasing are ones that emit a broader range of light wavelengths. You have to see one to fully appreciate it. <Step down from soapbox.>

Interesting timing on this since I just started a thread with this observation last night.

Just got my Jet-I PRO IBS today and I like it, especially the balance between throw/flood and the 3 quickly available modes.

One of the things that seems a little hard to understand was when I did some comparisons with my beloved D10 shining them out into the woods and up at the tops of some big spruce we have in the yard.

For some reason, although the 2 lights seem to be fairly equal in apparent brightness, the Jet-I PRO IBS suggested better contrast and detail, at least to my eyes.

The only other thing I could notice that may have had an effect was a slightly warmer tone and I'd love to hear if anyone else has noticed differing contrast and easier viewability due to tint alone, or is there more at work here that I'm missing?

So does this mean that warmer tints will ease viewability/contrast, or is my understanding too simplistic?

I know that I definitely like the warmer tints for appearance already, but if they also help viewability then I have another reason to place tint even higher yet on my priorities.

Thanks for the great post. :thumbsup:

 

[tebore]

Re: When will LEDs be out that you can distinguish arall colors with?

So what is the CRI of a halogen compared to the Sundrop LED?

All incans without filtering should be or close to 100 in CRI ratings.
The original CRI rating is based on a light source that supposedly should be under 5000k. Wikipedia has a nice write up on it.

 

[saabluster]

So does this mean that warmer tints will ease viewability/contrast, or is my understanding too simplistic?

Your understanding is too simplistic. It has nothing to do with warmth. That was what Mudman was trying to say. Go back and reread his last post.

 

[kaichu dento]

Your understanding is too simplistic. It has nothing to do with warmth. That was what Mudman was trying to say. Go back and reread his last post.

Maybe my understanding was too sleepy, because it reads a lot differently this time through.:candle:

It would be nice if some others would post on their experiences with differing contrast and theories as to what may be affecting it.

Also to say it has nothing to do with with warmth sounds a little too simplistic, even after reading again. :nana:

 

[saabluster]

It would be nice if some others would post on their experiences with differing contrast and theories as to what may be affecting it.

I have experienced better contrast using these high CRI LEDs outside. I find that although they are not as bright as the cool white they do not need to be because of the better CRI.

Also to say it has nothing to do with with warmth sounds a little too simplistic, even after reading again. :nana:

Warmth itself has nothing to do with CRI. Its that simple. However with Cree for example there is a slight increase in CRI going from the cool and neutral white(CRI 75) to warm white(CRI 80). It is a noticable amount going from 75 to 80 but the warm white is still not high CRI and does not have much deep red in it. The 5A crees I have have a pinkish cast to them. I'm sure Cree could get more true red but it is much more inefficient to turn the blue output of the die into red so they are trying to keep their lumens per watt up by not adding the true red phospher.

 

[cernobila]

I have a basic question which may have been indirectly answered somewhere in these pages. I like the 5AQ2 Dereelight D26/P60 drop-in........what other D26/P60 drop-ins are there that give a warm tint, are available now and are below $50.00.....and what about this Sundrop idea, is that available in the same format that could fit any of my "C" heads and what would they cost?

 

[mudman cj]

Re: When will LEDs be out that you can distinguish arall colors with?

So what is the CRI of a halogen compared to the Sundrop LED?

Even though the CRI of a halogen is 100 and the sundrop LED (Nichia 083) is lower, the sundrop actually approximates sunlight more closely than halogen (incandescent) with a couple of exceptions. Halogen is very weak in blue, whereas the Nichia 083 has a narrow band of weakness in blue and in green. This is why people are supposedly developing a new standard to augment or replace CRI. The field of artificial lighting is certainly due for it.

cernobilia - I think you have hit on a good idea. Someone should sell light engines using the Nichia 083 LEDs. The MCPCBs made my McGizmo are too large for many lights, but will fit in lights that can utilize an 0.7?" board (can't recall exact dimension).

 

[Cheapskate]

...but the warm white is still not high CRI and does not have much deep red in it. The 5A crees I have have a pinkish cast to them. I'm sure Cree could get more true red but it is much more inefficient to turn the blue output of the die into red so they are trying to keep their lumens per watt up by not adding the true red phospher.

There seems to be quite a bit of red phosphor in the cree in my experience. I made a red filter for my NDI and it works a treat, so the red is there.

Here is a photo of it at full output:

The white/yellow in the beam is actually intense red, it just overwhelms the camera ccd which is just a SE K750i phone.

This second shot - same camera - is with the white balance set to daylight. The top photo is with the NDI as the light source while the bottom one is daylight.

I think there is a lot more red output in the Cree than some people are suggesting.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

I'm not familiar with the NDI. Which LED and bin is in it?

 

[superflytnt]

Close up?? No, we're talking 20-200 feet away here. Big buildings need big light Or rather it makes things a WHOLE lot easier. Sitting on top of a 12 foot ladder peeking through a ceiling tile trying to find out where the wires you're looking for are, the brighter the light the less you need to move around. Which is a good thing when you have to do this in an office where people are working below you. Not sure about networking myself, maybe not a big deal if your prints are accurate. Building fire alarm prints seem to be anything but, we played musical ceiling tiles all the time.

Oops, sorry about that............bad assumption on my part

I just did a few tests with my favorite tinted lights and my SF E1B (creamy warm tint) seems to have a bit of an edge with colors and seems the closest to sunlight to my eyes.

Having said that, I still don't have much of a problem telling colors apart with most of my LED's that have decent tint. Maybe my brain automatically adjusts for tint but I have little trouble telling orange from red from pink from violet from blue etc. with nearly any LED light that I own. (I didn't have a huge wiring harness or anything so I used a large box of crayons with 64 different colors)