Do I need a Lion Cub???

[Geologist]

[in response to McGizmo]

Thanks for your comments regarding this issue. I brought up the subject of warranties regarding specialty lights as during the course of discussion about the HDS and Bulk lights, it was implied that the warranties for a Bulk Light are somehow inferior to another. Based upon those implications, I thought it would be appropriate (albeit not in this thread) to evaluate those comments. I think we are of the same opinion that any small time light creator can not be held responsible for a light once the user has taken upon hiself (or herself ) to make changes and that within reason, everyone is going to try to be fair and do what is right. Aside from the odd ball occurences here, that is the status quo here on CPF anyway.

OK now back OT-

Since I do not own an HDS, can someone advise if the light can tailstad? Another thing I like about the Lion Cub (as well as the LionHeart) is that since the switch is on the side, the base of the light is flat.

(Now I own a few LCs - but what I am ALSO interested in is a PD...... but we better save that for another thread...)

 

[Kiessling]

Geologist ... yes, the HDS tailstands.

liteboy... the most important difference between the HDS and the PD is the activation procedure. While the HDS has a uC switch that offers lots of modes and menues by multi-clicking one button, the PD uses advanced mechanical switching (either twisting for constant-on or pushing the tail for momentary-on) and has one low and one high output mode, fully regulated. The LC and the LH follows the HDS philosophy but is easier and more intuitive to use, I am told.

There are merits and flaws for either method, it is more a flashlight-philosophy question, maybe one of the most important ones. This is why I said that choosing your style of light / usage / philosophy first is so important.

I cannot give any further impressions about the HDS as I don't have one and neither can I comment a lot on the LC as I have only handled a LH.
But the PD I know fairly well, and if you are interested in solid info on this one, click here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/85527

bernie

 

[McGizmo]

[OT] Geologist, [/OT]

LiteBoy,

I own one of all three of the lights, LH, HDS and a PD. Beyond any native or inherrent bias, I am comfortable in stating that all three are better than a stock mini-mag, IMHO.

As Bernhard stated, there is a different means of providing light levels and the PD is limited to two of them. Access of the levels, means of operation and other considerations should be your guiding light. Drive levels of the LED, run times on various batteries and the use of various batteries also factor in. In terms of beam pattern, I think all three would be classed as similar. Accidental discharge may be a consideration or may not. Let the lights themselves spek to you! :nana:

Back to your initial question, I think it would be a more level comparison if you were to consider the HDS VS Charlie's new Cameleon (sp). In this case, both lights are set up with current control of the LED as well as PWM dimming.

"Do you need a McLuxIII PD?" Nah. Could you use one or would you like it? No idea. :shrug:

 

[Anglepoise]

Liteboy,
The side switch is very nice on the LC.
However before buying one I would want to clarify the warranty situation.
These are/were not cheap lights and the driver/switch that was used in this series of lights is no longer available to purchase.
If memory serves, Mr Bulk had 8 of these drivers for sale and he stated that once these were sold, that was it. Now he might have a few for repairs, and this part has proven to be reliable, but I would still suggest that you might want to find out what would happen in the future if you burnt out a driver and needed a replacement.

 

[liteboy]

As many of you have already guessed, I don't really NEED another light as my wife is already on my case. Since discovering this (evil) forum a few months ago, I have already bought:

HDS EDC U60XRGT
SF G2 with P90 lamp (RCR123)
Peak Matterhorn
RAW with 2-stage
Inova X1
Fenix L1P x 7 (I will give some away as gifts)
and several other "toy" lights and a bunch of chargers and batteries...
oh a SF A2 that got "lost" in transit from SupremeCo (hong Kong)

I wish to add to my collection - something again near the high end. and that is why I pose the question of this thread...

thanks all for your input so far. I am but a newb and I value the advice collected here.

 

[yaesumofo]

I love this question.

The McLuxIIIPd is one of my my EDCs. I have 2 McLuxIII Pd's and one is always with me.
BTW I rarely leave the house with only one flashlight.
Recently I have been carrying a both Bare MrBulk Lion Cub and a McLUXIII PD.
The design philosophies of these lights is about as different as two flashlights of this caliber could be. I say caliber because they really are like guns can shoot the same bullets these flashlights both use LUX III's as the source for light. They just do it very differently.
The original question was "Do I need a Lion Cub???" I don't know. Do you?
Do you need a McLuxIII PD? Hell if I know.
I know for a fact that I do. I need both.

Now if you look at the design of these lights they could not possibly be much more different. I love that. I also love that at the end of the day they both spit out a good number of lumens through the window.

When I hold these in my hand I notice a couple of things. The first thing notice is the fact that the McLuxIII Pd is heavier. Not but much but it is heavier. The next thing I notice is that the Lion Cub is slightly shorter. The McluxIII PD has a (now second generation) titanium clip, attached to my ti cilp is a long lanyard which allows me to hang the light around my neck. The Lion Cub has an attachment point for a loop. I have the special lanyard that was sent with the LE version of this light attached to my BARE EDC Lion Cub.
The Physical difference between these lights really does show off the philosophal design differences between these two flashlight producers.

The lion cub is activated by pressing a small button this little button allows you to tell the flashlight what you want it to do..This little button does a lot more than turn the flashlight on or off.
The McluxIII PD has at least 2 ways of activating it.The two that I use are, One is to push the tail. Press hard and it engages low press harder and it engages high or you can twist the light to turn on to low or high. Basic philosophical difference here tiny push button switch vs either press to engage or twist to engage. The twisting action on my PD is very smooth. The button pushing on the Lion Cub is exactly what you would expect. It might be difficult to engage the Lion Cub with heavy gloves on.
Something else you will notice it the fact that when you look to the window the McLuxIII PD has a slightly larger window than the Lion cub. The lion Cub does not have a stock (Mcr20 I hope this is correct) reflector like the McLuxIII PD but that reflector can be installed as an"upgrade"
Another difference between these lights is the simple fact that the lion Cub is designed to run on Lithium Ion secondarys (rechargeable) 123 cells. The Mclux III Pd is really designed to be used with primary cells.
Another thing you will notice when using these lights is that the Lion Cub is a brighter light. This may vary from light to light but I think it is safe to say that generally the the Lion cub when run with rechargable cells is a brighter light.
I carry my MxluxIII PD every day I use it at work It is a real tool which gets used as a tool. The Lion Cub is a light I use differently, but the difference is subtle I certainly use the Lion Cub when I need a very low light.

I feel like I need to be fair when talking about these lights. It truly becomes a subjective matter. There are things I really like about the McLucIII PD I love the twist action. I have a friend who I encouraged to buy the same light and he found that he didnt like the twist action at all. (he likes a clicky) To each his own.
Do you need a Lion Cub ? I still don't know. I know I need one in fact I need 3 of them I would have 4 but I couldn't really afford a titanium Lion Cub when a friend offered his to me.
I do have a preference between these lights I prefer the McLuxIII PD at the moment. These are both exelant flashlights. I also look forward to Mr Bulks next flashlight.
That Is all I have for now.
Hope I didn't bore you.

Yaesumofo

How 'bout another question...Do I "need" a McLux III PD since many veterans here seem to swear by this light? Any takers who happen to own both the PD and EDC??

 

[Bogus1]

A couple corrections. The PD is designed to run on both primary and Li-ions, unlike the cub which is only Li-ions. The 'builder' will claim otherwise, however the board on the LC cuts off at 2.7 volts which means there is little capacity available from a primary and the output will be dim.

Also the PD is a 'custom light'. These are built by the builder and designer himself. You can special order your drive levels. I bought a PD regulated at 1,100 with a UXIJ that would eat any LC. I know because I've owned over a dozen LCs. The LC is not truly a custom light. It's a small run production light. However unlike either the PD or the HDS; there obviously is little to no engineering involved in the build as you would see in a quality production light like the HDS. The exception would be the board builder for the LC.

It's not difficult to press the small switch on the LC with thick gloves, it's impossible. It's difficult to press with bare hands if you have large hands. It's very, very difficult to press in the dark in a hurry and in fact you could put yourself in a precarious situation if you rely on this light for essential use. These lights are promoted as tactical; however there are no momentary or other tactical qualities on tap.

There are numerous build issues with the LC. You can mod these lights if you want to overcome them. You will however need the assistance of a lathe to open up the bezel. You will need to purchase a new reflector; a new o-ring, a new switch button, and you will have to find a way to affix the star, as they are only pasted down and shift out of center. I would also suggest changing the star to a K bin as well. There are a few more issues, and the beam quality is very poor with the Lionhead unless it also is modded, however this would cover most of it. At the same time for this expense you could buy the new Indium Smart, or perhaps even have a proto machined to your own specs for close to the same cost. The best cub to buy is one that's already been modded, as there is no warranty to speak of anyhow and no reason to buy new at prices higher than the going rate.

An advantage of the VIP and the LCs is the ability for candle mode. This is not a small issue if you really use this feature as I do. Neither the HDS nor PD will do this. There are other lights such as TnC lights that will accommodate this purpose and can be modded for additional features, however these builds are excellent to begin with. IMO the best light MR Bulk built by a long shot was the VIP.

In terms of any warranty being left to common sense and to MR Bulk's good faith, I would suggest this has not been born out through my experiences. I never received the courtesy of a reply to a defective VIP, even though this was a special one out of 5 built VIPs. MR Bulk refused to assist me in sizing o-rings for his lights that would have worked with the clips he promoted and/or sold. If you read through the lines of his warranty you will note what is really being asked of you. He wants you to be a promotional partner through his forum in order for you to remain on good terms. I had problems with 5 of my Lionhearts. When I politely raised the issue that there was a problem with the ground path; that's when I saw the real person behind MR Bulk. "Cut-off" is a term he uses regularly and it applies to those who own his lights as well as those who want to buy them. In fact beginning August 1st I have politely asked MR Bulk through PMs and posts to honor his thread that states those of us who paid $300 for a CPF cub would get a free lanyard (how he equates $300 with free is unknown to me). I have never received the courtesy of a response even though my PMs have been read. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/89194

I don't believe this is OT. It is important to know no games will be played before or after your purchase of a light, regardless of your opinions.

 

[Kiessling]

An advantage of the VIP and the LCs is the ability for candle mode. This is not a small issue if you really use this feature as I do. Neither the HDS nor PD will do this.

If by candle mode you mean a light that stands on its tail pointing the business end up to the ceiling ... both the PD and the HDS can do it. I am sure for the PD (have one in front of me in candle mode right now) and judging from the HDS pics it should work, too.
Other than that, I agree with your thoughts.

bernie

 

[Bogus1]

I didn't mean tail stand. I meant exposing the live LED for use as a candle. I find that useful for many things.

 

[Geologist]

Bogus1 - If I remember correctly, if one is using the stock IMS reflector in the cub, than opening up the bezel will not make any significant difference in light output. The McGizmo reflector ROCKS - it is much better than an IMS and everyone knows it (and it is what 4-5 times more expensive?). *IF* you put the McGizmo reflector in the LC, then you have to deal with the better reflector is now slightly obsured by the stock bezel. So you open up the bezel and get more light...... build issue -NO? If the LC was built for the McGizmo reflector than yes - otherwise it is just the case that someone figured out how to get more light by, in essence, redesigning the head! If you choose to permanently affix the star that is possible (with thermal epoxy), but the head (IMLE) does not "shift out of center" with the head and reflector in place. As far as the LionHead is concerned, can you clarify by what you mean about beam quality issues? The LionHead is great!

 

[Geologist]

I mean come on! This thread is jumping off the end! You can take ANY light and with enough money, time, determination, etc you can improve on something brightness, runtime, regulation. reflectors, lens, finish.... But to attribute it to a "build issue"? wow.

 

[Radio]

This is a very interesting thread, I was just asking myself the same question "Do I need a Lion Cub???" and had initiated PM's with several people that I noticed had LC, HDS and PD in their tag lines trying to get some feedback. Glad to see someone asked the question outright for us noobs wanting to jump right into the thick of it. I actually am now leaning toward the PD after all the feedback but the HDS is a close second and have still not ruled out the anticipated replacement for the LC. Thanks for all the feedback and keep it coming!!

 

[yaesumofo]

The HDS EDC with the new switches work in candle mode much better than the first gen units. My Pd's stand on their end while turned on just fine. The shine from the ceiling works perfect for me as a candle mode. If you If you are referring to removing the head and burning the globe like a candle there are a whole bunch of tactical lights which do not do that. The Mini mag is the king of candle mode in my opinion
Bogus1 seems to have a resentment about the lion cub. I guess I would too if I had been through a dozen of them searching for one that is perfect.
I stand behind everything I said about both lights I did attempt to keep as neutral as possible. It took me quite a while to get used to and start carrying the Lion Cub flashlight. I find both flashlights useful. I tend to use the PD more as a tool.

I think you need to ask yourself if the Lion Cub fulfills your needs as a tool user and as a flashaholic.

Personally I would have rather seen Bogus1 be a bit more objective in His analysis of the lights I chose to write about.
Yaesumofo

If by candle mode you mean a light that stands on its tail pointing the business end up to the ceiling ... both the PD and the HDS can do it. I am sure for the PD (have one in front of me in candle mode right now) and judging from the HDS pics it should work, too.
Other than that, I agree with your thoughts.

Bernie

 

[liteboy]

It does appear that Bogus1 has an issue with Mr. Bulk and his prior experiences with the LC. However I thought he was quite impartial in at least several points which had not occured to me. The most obvious is the fact about the small button, which I can imagine having to turn the light round and round in order to find! The point about the ability to truly "customize" a PD is also quite enlightening. I myself am starting to lean towards a PD...

 

[Sigman]

I'd love to give myself a PD for my birthday or Christmas! I just need to figure out a way to channel funds in that direction!!

 

[Bogus1]

I mean come on! This thread is jumping off the end! You can take ANY light and with enough money, time, determination, etc you can improve on something brightness, runtime, regulation. reflectors, lens, finish.... But to attribute it to a "build issue"? wow.

In MR Bulk's forum he even stated at one point he was "bummed" about occluding the bezel on these lights. That would seem to indicate to his credit he even thought there was a "build issue" and posted as much. He then offered to have TnC widen the bezels to 19mm which would accommodate the IMS20 reflectors.

Yes the standard 17.5mm bezel opening occluded the stock reflector. However MR Bulk advocated the 19mm opening as a fix to use with the McR-20, which it is not. It needs to be 20.5mm. If you don't think the difference between the stock reflector and the modded "fix" is significant, then I would have to disagree with this subjective evaluation. I have seen huge increases in this mod and some of these have been posted in my BST thread by others. Raising the lux of a light from approx. 1,500 lux to 2,500 lux without any mods other than a reflector and the opening of a bezel is tremendous.

Mind you this is not a discussion between the merits of flood vs. lux, which is all valid. The loss of this lux resulted in distracting beam artifacts and essentially lost light without value. All it would have taken for the cubs to have been built in this manner would have been a little engineering and perhaps an additional $5 or so in parts. I'll pay an extra $5 for 60% more lux if the head doesn't get any bigger and if the battery draw isn't increased, heck I'll pay more than $50. MR Bulk's latest lights have the bezels widened BTW. Since you are a moderator of his forum I suspect you know all this.

 

[Geologist]

You are right the next light has the widened bezel but again with the McGizmo reflector. With the stock reflector, I do not think modding the light will make a significant difference. But then again, we are talking about modding the light. Oh yes I've been a moderator for 5 days now - it still does not affect the lights.

 

[Lips]

Hello Liteboy,

I think an important factor to consider when looking into purchasing a Lion Cub or any flashlight is that its producer Mr. Bulk, Charlie or anyone doesn't go around talking about how sorry and worthless the other "producer-manufactures" creations are. Does the producer/manufacturer encourage insulting the decisions of many purchasers to buy one particular product over another. In my time here I have not seen any other minion of cheerleaders who get the "viagra effect" every time they see the letters Bulk or PD.

For me Yaesumofo was fair and objective. Worth repeating he said

"It truly becomes a subjective matter. There are things I really like about the McLucIII PD I love the twist action. I have a friend who I encouraged to buy the same light and he found that he didnt like the twist action at all. (he likes a clicky) To each his own"

I prefer the electronic no muscle switch of the Lion Cub with multiple user interfaces over a manual two stage push/twisty switch. Not that either is bad but Preference. I prefer the UI with 3 levels of brightness on the Cub- Very low, Med, High at a touch of the easily pressed button.

Modular: LC has extended battery tubes and the Lion Head available to
extend the capabilities of your light. I have both and am happy.

Gloves: I tried the LC and MCE2S (two stage twisty) with ski gloves. Both
worked with neither much fun. Small gloves no problem for either.

Bezel: Mr. Bulk made a mistake on the bezel opening. He offered a free fix.
I sent mine in... I also fixed one on my own. The stock lens is fine.
If you read the forums all the lights have had some problems.

The LC has a momentary switch if you choose that to be your UI as stated
otherwise in thread. None of these high end lights are totally junk.

Warrantee issue: BS All the small manufacturers write their warrantees
minimally or at all. You have a problem and contact
them they will fix it.
My lion head was lost in the mail, Post Office
fault, Mr. Bulk does not know me from adam, he
sent me a replacement at his expense.

Mr. Bulks new creation the "Chameleon" featured at the other flashlight forum is fully regulated with 5 levels of differential output and brightness with a host of add on battery tubes and multiple throwing reflector heads.

Haven't bought a Chameleon because I am looking at a chrome PD. Trying to figure out which one I "need" Good luck!

 

[Geologist]

Good points as well Lips.

As I mentioned in first post and as Lips pointed out, the modularity of the Cub/Chameleon series is really nice. Three different battery sized may be used with the corresponding tubes. As well the LionHead is just great when you need a light that throws (due to ~2"/50mm reflector).

I like the PD as well (although I thought it was about the HDS...) especially that Chrome!!! I admit that since I do not have one (yet ), I know a lot less about it. I am only posting about stuff that I have direct experience with.

But in the end - you gotta either make up your own mind (while the rest of us argue ad nauseum), buy both, or buy all three, seven, etc and sell the ones that you don't like or use.

Good luck in your search!

 

[GadgetTravel]

An overall very interesting discussion. In my case I have to admit that I am planning on getting all three, well four if you count the Chameleon. It is just a question of what order I get them in. I started with the Lion Cub since there are apparently just a few left at Lighthound.com. I also will likely wait for the HDS 85 so I wasnt in a hurry on that one. In fact either the PD or Chameleon will likely be next. I suspect these are all great lights and compared to most of the lights out there this is a bit like arguing the relative merits of a Ferrari vs Lamborghini vs Porsche.