Is the US Immigration on some witchhunt recently?

[raggie33]

what i find interesting or disturbing is all i see on the news is how bad the usa is.but then why in the world does everyone want to be here?people risk there lifes to be here.i dont see people risking there lifes to leave!

 

[greenLED]

I've been fortunate to travel a lot, and all immigration services I've dealt with are more or less equally "friendly" to foreigners. :green: Some countries just happen to have tighter visa policies (and/or enforcement) than others. No surprise here.


:sniff: Do I smell the Underground?

 

[raggie33]

i went to canada once and they didnt even check my id same thing on way home i was glad since i lost my id lol

 

[TedTheLed]

that's funny -- the only time anything like that ever happened to me was in Spain; the "Franco's Men" (yep he was STILL alive then)on the train checked everyone's passport, except mine!!? I was an American hippie, and I think they found me so repulsive they didn't even want to talk to me!!

alright!!! (pointing)

(not that that's why they didn't want to check your ID, Raggie.

 

[raggie33]

that's funny -- the only time anything like that ever happened to me was in Spain; the "Franco's Men" (yep he was STILL alive then)on the train checked everyone's passport, except mine!!? I was an American hippie, and I think they found me so repulsive they didn't even want to talk to me!!

alright!!! (pointing)

(not that that's why they didn't want to check your ID, Raggie.

lol its either that orthe fact i was dressed up as a huge moron which is the same thing i ware everyday

 

[Sub_Umbra]

I'm not at all sure what you meant by the term witchhunt but you should be advised that in the States it has been used in a very inflamitory manner in both the 20th and 21th centurys.

The term witchhunt is normally a very biased term used to semantically skew an argument in the user's favor. The most famous witchhunt in the history of the US took place in Salem, Mass. According to ALL accounts, no witches were ever found in Salem.

Moving into the 20th century, Arthur Miller wrote "The Crucible", which takes place in Salem during the famous witchhunt. Of course, the real deal about "The Crucible" was the fact that it was actually a commentary on Senator Joseph McCarthy's activities and those of the House Un-American Activities Committee.

The idea of linking McCarthy, rhetorically, to a witchhunt was brilliant, however disingenuous. Once his cause was linked to a heavily front loaded word like witchhunt he never had a prayer. It didn't matter that history has shown that the vast majority of those he accused of being Communists were later proved, in fact, to be Communists. He was forever hopelessly linked to the term witchhunt, with all of it's rhetorical connotations.

When we choose to use the word witchhunt in a question we must remember the rhetorical power it has and how the language that both sides tacitly agree to use may very well determine the outcome -- regardless of what the actual facts were. As an example, the witchhunt in Salem failed to turn up even one witch. What has been discribed as "Joseph McCarthy's Witchunt" found many, many, many Communists. SEARCH for "venona intercepts" if you think that there were no Communists in McCarthy's Witchunt.

My point here is not about McCarthy. My point is that this 'discussion' has been couched in terms that have been used in a very inflamitory way, in many arguments in the States in the last ~60 years. IMO it is a very bad choice of words for a civil, above ground discussion.

Now, back to the question: Is there a witchunt going on? Well, since the vast majority of us (myself included) do not think that witches exist at all, and since I know that the US does, in fact, have a huge illegal immigration problem with tens of millons of illegals running all over the place -- I would say no -- it's not a Witchunt.

While I am 100% in favor of the lawful immigration into the US there is no upside to most comments made to a thread with a title that is as emotionally and politically and rhetorically charged as this one is. A differently worded Subject would have served the OP better, IMO.

IMO.

 

[WNG]

Nothing new, this policy has been in place before 9/11.
Happened to my ex-wife back in 1999 in China.
It's standard to test you with a series of questions to see how you answer as to whether you give away your intentions to attempt to stay within the USA after your student visa or work visa expires.
If you sound like you're not going to return to your point of origin, they'll refuse your visa renewal.

 

[tvodrd]

Good post Sub_Umbra! I have a dumb question. I have extremely limited experience travelling/working outside the States. I went to TJ as a kid in San Diego, "worked" in the former Republic of Vietnam for an all-expenses-paid year in '68-69, and recently "worked" in Dublin for a couple days, followed by a couple days in Nivelles, Belgium. I didn't need a visa for the trip to Europe. I guess tourists don't generally need visas, nor business travellers, but students and longer term visitors do. How does it work/not work? I know there are a lot of Mexican citizens who live in Mexico and commute to the U.S. daily, and viceversa. Same, I presume for Canada. Do they require visas? :shrug:

Larry

 

[LEDcandle]

Scott, thanks a lot for the offer of the attorney contact. It hasn't come to that; but you've been most helpful :thumbsup: Strange policy that a person working in the US isn't technically allowed to obtain a greencard there but must pursue it from home. I would think logically that a person who has integrated and 'contributed' to society would be given more chance.

Sub_Umbra, well I guess I didn't exactly choose the most appropriate word but it was the closest that came to mind; MSN encarta defines it as "1. campaign against dissenters: an intensive systematic campaign directed against those who have done something wrong or who hold different views". So I kinda meant that; like an intentional effort to to pick on little issues.

I know just a couple of cases doesn't mean anything and that the US has already come a long way in relaxing certain things. To those who are very country-proud, I have nothing against the States in general; just mentioning that in these cases they seem to be picking on the wrong people. I know when the problem reaches millions, its hard to be so discerning but I hope they'll just do their best to see the merits above the flaws.

Besides, if they don't let my bro back in, who's gonna bring back flashlights for me ya? :laughing:

 

[Brighteyez]

That's a good point. For a country that already has so many poor uneducated natives, there's no reason to go importing them from elsewhere.

Exactly, unrestrained immigration of poor uneducated folks will really add to the U.S. brain trust.

 

[Empath]

The most famous witchhunt in the history of the US took place in Salem, Mass. According to ALL accounts, no witches were ever found in Salem.

Perhaps you meant they weren't really witches, but they were convicted and hanged.

Even before the Salem witch trials, the practice of using mass hysteria against real or imagined concerns was used. Probably at any given time, the same thing exists. The term "witchhunt" became rather synonymous with the phenomena because it reflects it so well.

People take a genuine concern, real or imagined, and use it for their own agenda against particular individuals or as reason to exempt themselves from normal standards of behavior. It can be personal vendettas, political, religion, or any number of reasons or prejudices that permit it to go on. Fortunately, in many of the situations, the unreasonable rational is re-evaluated later, sometimes decades later, and recognized for what it was.

Today is no different. We do have our "witchhunts" going on. I don't know that immigration status has reached that point, but the potential is there if there is a sustained degree of concern and anger. I'd class the search for terrorists and sexual predators more in the description today, than immigration. Both terrorists and sexual predators are a serious concern, and merit exceptional efforts to bring it under control. Using that serious concern, and accelerating the hysteria involved, curtailing rights and privacy becomes easier to excuse. Even though the underlying reasons are sound, the reasons are exploited for something beyond the problem, be it political or personal vendettas.

 

[Brighteyez]

While it is true that the application has to be filed from the country of citizenship, it is not much more than a minor inconvenience/interuption/vacation for a person on a work visa. Usually they go home to visit with their family and friends, file the paperwork, and come back to work. Often in as little as a week, though I saw one done in 4 days once (a definite workaholic, considering that it was over 20 hours of flight time in each direction,) and I've seen others who must have run into obstacles ( yeah, right,) where they didn't come back for over a month. I even know of one instance where an individual did this as a side trip when they had to go to a nearby country on a business trip.

Scott, thanks a lot for the offer of the attorney contact. It hasn't come to that; but you've been most helpful :thumbsup: Strange policy that a person working in the US isn't technically allowed to obtain a greencard there but must pursue it from home. I would think logically that a person who has integrated and 'contributed' to society would be given more chance.

 

[Brighteyez]

It varies depending upon what agreements are in effect between the specific country and the U.S. In most Western European countries you don't need a visa for a business trip and can work there for a short period (90 days?). Other countries don't require a visa for a short business trip (like maybe a week or two), and other countries require a visa for any kind of visit (China is one that comes to mind.) For most of the industrialized countries, all you would need is a passport.

In the case of Viet Nam during the period that "visited", your military ID card was both your passport and your visa.

How does it work/not work?

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Perhaps you meant they weren't really witches...

Yes, that's what I meant. Family lore and some family genialogical tome claims that one of my ancesters was actually one of the ones that was hanged as a result of those same trials. The time frame and place is right but I don't believe it -- were not that easy to catch.

LEDcandle,
No problem -- It's just a word that pushes my buttons. I feel better now that I've gotten it out.

 

[tvodrd]

Thanks Brighteyez, I'm starting to get it. My employer has facilities worldwide, including China. I did know that some countries require a visa just to visit. I have to sit in an "allday" with folks from Japan next week.

Larry

 

[BB]

Regarding the Salem Witch trials, there is probably an underlying root cause as to why they thought they were dealing with Witches:

Ergot Poisoning (LSD) - the cause of the Salem Witch Trials - PBS ...

When Linnda Caporael began nosing into the Salem witch trials as a college student in the early 1970s, she had no idea that a common grain fungus might be responsible for the terrible events of 1692. But then the pieces began to fall into place. Caporael, now a behavioral psychologist at New York's Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, soon noticed a link between the strange symptoms reported by Salem's accusers, chiefly eight young women, and the hallucinogenic effects of drugs like LSD. LSD is a derivative of ergot, a fungus that affects rye grain. Ergotism -- ergot poisoning -- had indeed been implicated in other outbreaks of bizarre behavior, such as the one that afflicted the small French town of Pont-Saint-Esprit in 1951.

…

Toxicologists now know that eating ergot-contaminated food can lead to a convulsive disorder characterized by violent muscle spasms, vomiting, delusions, hallucinations, crawling sensations on the skin, and a host of other symptoms -- all of which, Linnda Caporael noted, are present in the records of the Salem witchcraft trials. Ergot thrives in warm, damp, rainy springs and summers. When Caporael examined the diaries of Salem residents, she found that those exact conditions had been present in 1691. Nearly all of the accusers lived in the western section of Salem village, a region of swampy meadows that would have been prime breeding ground for the fungus. At that time, rye was the staple grain of Salem. The rye crop consumed in the winter of 1691-1692 -- when the first unusual symptoms began to be reported -- could easily have been contaminated by large quantities of ergot. The summer of 1692, however, was dry, which could explain the abrupt end of the "bewitchments." These and other clues built up into a circumstantial case against ergot that Caporael found impossible to ignore.

-Bill

 

[LowBat]

Strange policy that a person working in the US isn't technically allowed to obtain a greencard there but must pursue it from home. I would think logically that a person who has integrated and 'contributed' to society would be given more chance.

One of the reoccurring problems with work visas is it gives some folks an attitude of entitlement. There are some examples in the link I posted earlier. Work and student visas should not be used as an avenue towards immigration, and unless there are extenuating circumstances, perspective immigrants should apply from their home countries.

 

[TedTheLed]

Low, did you mean to say "prospective" (not "perspective") imigrants..?
I mean unless they're imigrant itinerant architects..

Generally speaking though I think we need more perspective wherever we can get it.

 

[Jumpmaster]

Low, did you mean to say "prospective" (not "perspective") imigrants..?
I mean unless they're imigrant itinerant architects..

Generally speaking though I think we need more perspective wherever we can get it.

Did you mean "immigrant" instead of "imigrant"?

JM-99

 

[James S]

It's more true than you probably realize how powerful words are. One might go as far as to say that the written word is magic. Once you write something down it becomes true, once you attach a connotation it becomes true.

Your reality is more shaped by what others TELL you than by what you might observe for yourself. And we often fail to apply proper tests of skepticism to this information.

And I will tell you with more words that people that are in a position to control what it is you read are very well aware of their power to sway your perception of the world you live in.

Think about that the next time you read the same old story in the paper or hear the same tired series of words describing some current situation on the TV. Remember the first time you heard it? Remember how you probably though that things weren't quite that bad? But now that you've heard it every day for a year you no longer think that? Perhaps it's time for a little independent research on some of the things we all think we know so much about.

And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of immigration politics.