Runtime of P90 in different cells

[Zen|th]

Hi guys,

I have been looking high and low for this topic but i cant seem to see any detailed explanation. I dont really the understand the electronic terms honestly.

If somebody could point out the right direction or maybe tell me the different runtimes on AW rechargeables?

I plan to put the P90 in my 6PD.. SO which would give me the best runtime.

Or maybe you guys have better P60 sized drop in options.

PS. will the output vary by using different cells?

 

[325addict]

I tested it lately: on two AW "black" 750mAh RCR123s the runtime of a P90 was 31m30s and then output dropped significantly, so I switched it off in order to not run the batteries into their protection. I'm sure, within 1 minute that would have been the case.
The real capacity is around 600mAh for these cells.

Yes, at least runtime will vary wildly with the different cells you use. On a set of Ultrafire 880mAh rated(!) RCR123s you only get around 20 minutes of runtime.

From the graphs someone posted here in his ultimate comparison of RCR123s, it was quite clear that AW batteries offer the best in terms of "flat" discharge characteristics. In real life this means, output will stay fairly constant throughout the discharging time.

So, bottom line is: I would strongly suggest buying the AW cells indeed. They may be a bit more expensive, but "you get what you pay for" is really true here :thumbsup:


Timmo.

 

[mdocod]

In the 2xCR123 size class, for decent output/runtime LEDs have taken a lead. While there are configurations involving IMR16340 cells that can beat or match those quad-die emitters, the runtime is pretty bad (a few minutes).

A MalkOff M60 on a pair of RCR123s will run for ~40+ minutes delivering a true 220-240+ torch lumens, and he even has a warm tint available that will give it a behavior more like an incan if that's what you desire. Will work with 2xCR123 when needed.

LumensFactory, DereeLight, Solarforce, and numerous "no-name" "R2" P60 compatible LED modules out there are actually very decent performers and pretty cheap. (most test right around 190 true torch lumen and drive a modern cree to ~1A). They will run for ~45 minutes on a pair of RCR123s. Will work with 2xCR123 when needed.

If going with incandescent is by choice for other reasons, then I would advise a cell extender and a pair of 17500s (making it a rechargeable 9P platform) at bare minimum, adding that single cell worth of length actually doubles stored energy compared with RCR123s. A 2x18500 body would be even better.... You can start running in the ~60+ minutes runtime ballpark in these configurations. The 2x17500 and 2x18500 configurations have the advantage of being backwards compatible with 3xCR123 as a quick drop-in as needed.

Alternatively, a single 17670 driving a strion bulb in an FM T1.5 bi-pin D26 adapter will also work very well and give better runtime than most of the 2xRCR123 configurations for incans. The 17670 size cell would also have the advantage of having more stored energy than 2xRCR123s, even better would be a 1x18650 body replacement to get well over an hour runtime from this setup. Or, as an alternative to the D26 bi-pin from FM, a slightly brighter option but with less runtime would be either an EO-4 from LumensFactory or a 3.7V D26 from Wolf-Eyes. Keep in mind that this will not be backwards compatible with running 2xCR123 primary cells.

If the size needs to stay as is, go with a pair of IMR16340s to drive "9V" incans as they will give you the flattest output. Don't let the 550mAH label rating scare you, at these drain rates (~2C) they will perform as well or better than most RCR123s out there for both output and runtime. They will also be safer and live MANY MORE life cycles than RCR123s as these drain rates wear out RCR123s quickly. A pair of CR123s could be dropped in in a pinch but output would be terrible.

The LumensFactory ES-9 would be best if you wanted more runtime than 30 minutes or less you will get from other "9V" tactical lamps on RCR123s. Most "standard" output tactical lamps draw ~1.2A, the ES-9 draws ~0.85A and will run for closer to 40 minutes.

The M60 and other LED modules mentioned above can also be run on a single 17670 or 18650 with lower output and diminishing output through the run. The M60 would run in the ~200 diminishing to ~100L range through the run, while most of the others start at around 100 and diminish to about 50 through the run in this configuration, either way, they are plenty bright for most applications here and will run for HOURS like this, in this configuration they will still be backwards compatible with CR123s as needed.

 

[bigchelis]

What is the current at the tail on the P90 with 2 rechargeable li-on cells?


mdocod,
I think you mentioned it would throw further than the P91 right?

Also,
My P91 w/ 2 IMR 16340's gets the 6P body pretty warm after 5 minutes and my runtime is just as short. I was thinking of getting a P90 lamp and run it with 2 IMR 16340's, but I don't know what type of current to determine the runtime. I just ordered the AW 18650 2600mAh cells to run the P91 with.

Thank you,
bigchelis

 

[dchao]

I just ordered the AW 18650 2600mAh cells to run the P91 with.

Don't you need two 18500's to run P91? Two 18650's would be too long to fit into the body.

 

[bigchelis]

Don't you need two 18500's to run P91? Two 18650's would be too long to fit into the body.

All my Surefire 6P's are bored to fit 18650's and I use a Solarforce 18650 extention. This allows me to use 2 18650's with my 6P.

I do have a 6 AW 17500 cells for the 9P set-up, but the only lamp I have is a P91 and I don't want to run that set-up because the current at the tail is about 2.6A with 2 AW 17500

My favorate by far is the 2 18650 lego's, but not for EDC.

Back to the OP: I like the Idea of a P90 with 2 AW cr123, but I wouldn't do it myself if the current at the tail is 2A plus. Depending on the current you might have to get IMR 16340's which can handle the higher current of the P91 and the P90???? ( I don't know the current at the tail yet).

 

[mdocod]

From my previous post:

... Most "standard" output tactical lamps draw ~1.2A, the ES-9 draws ~0.85A and will run for closer to 40 minutes....

The P90 is right around 1.2A, or about 20-30 minutes runtime on RCR123s/IMR16340s.

 

[bigchelis]

From my previous post:



The P90 is right around 1.2A, or about 20-30 minutes runtime on RCR123s/IMR16340s.

Thanks for the clarification. I am looking forward to a P90 lamp now It will be a perfect format with 2 AW cr123's in a 6P.

 

[Zen|th]

Wow, I didnt know it was this compplicated!

So if I were to run my P90 on 2 AW RC123,

The runtime would be ~30 mins, will the output be 105 lumens or less?

 

[bigchelis]

Wow, I didnt know it was this compplicated!

So if I were to run my P90 on 2 AW RC123,

The runtime would be ~30 mins, will the output be 105 lumens or less?

If you think that is tricky. My P91 which Surefire said makes 200 lumens actually makes more. With 2 17670 AW cells and 2.6A+ at the tail MrGman measured the peak lumens at 466 out the front.:nana:

If Surefire P90 is anything like the P91 I am sure it is underated and you will get more lumens out the front than what you thought. I will make a thread to publish my work with the P90 this weekend. Hopefully it will be 200 out the front lumens.

 

[Zen|th]

If you think that is tricky. My P91 which Surefire said makes 200 lumens actually makes more. With 2 17670 AW cells and 2.6A+ at the tail MrGman measured the peak lumens at 466 out the front.:nana:

If Surefire P90 is anything like the P91 I am sure it is underated and you will get more lumens out the front than what you thought. I will make a thread to publish my work with the P90 this weekend. Hopefully it will be 200 out the front lumens.

WOW! Thats awesome!

I wonder what the runtime would be! If that is the case, for my 6PD, i would have to get 2 A19 cell extenders to fit 2 17670 AW right?

 

[Zen|th]

In the 2xCR123 size class, for decent output/runtime LEDs have taken a lead. While there are configurations involving IMR16340 cells that can beat or match those quad-die emitters, the runtime is pretty bad (a few minutes).

A MalkOff M60 on a pair of RCR123s will run for ~40+ minutes delivering a true 220-240+ torch lumens, and he even has a warm tint available that will give it a behavior more like an incan if that's what you desire. Will work with 2xCR123 when needed.

LumensFactory, DereeLight, Solarforce, and numerous "no-name" "R2" P60 compatible LED modules out there are actually very decent performers and pretty cheap. (most test right around 190 true torch lumen and drive a modern cree to ~1A). They will run for ~45 minutes on a pair of RCR123s. Will work with 2xCR123 when needed.

If going with incandescent is by choice for other reasons, then I would advise a cell extender and a pair of 17500s (making it a rechargeable 9P platform) at bare minimum, adding that single cell worth of length actually doubles stored energy compared with RCR123s. A 2x18500 body would be even better.... You can start running in the ~60+ minutes runtime ballpark in these configurations. The 2x17500 and 2x18500 configurations have the advantage of being backwards compatible with 3xCR123 as a quick drop-in as needed.

Alternatively, a single 17670 driving a strion bulb in an FM T1.5 bi-pin D26 adapter will also work very well and give better runtime than most of the 2xRCR123 configurations for incans. The 17670 size cell would also have the advantage of having more stored energy than 2xRCR123s, even better would be a 1x18650 body replacement to get well over an hour runtime from this setup. Or, as an alternative to the D26 bi-pin from FM, a slightly brighter option but with less runtime would be either an EO-4 from LumensFactory or a 3.7V D26 from Wolf-Eyes. Keep in mind that this will not be backwards compatible with running 2xCR123 primary cells.

If the size needs to stay as is, go with a pair of IMR16340s to drive "9V" incans as they will give you the flattest output. Don't let the 550mAH label rating scare you, at these drain rates (~2C) they will perform as well or better than most RCR123s out there for both output and runtime. They will also be safer and live MANY MORE life cycles than RCR123s as these drain rates wear out RCR123s quickly. A pair of CR123s could be dropped in in a pinch but output would be terrible.

The LumensFactory ES-9 would be best if you wanted more runtime than 30 minutes or less you will get from other "9V" tactical lamps on RCR123s. Most "standard" output tactical lamps draw ~1.2A, the ES-9 draws ~0.85A and will run for closer to 40 minutes.

The M60 and other LED modules mentioned above can also be run on a single 17670 or 18650 with lower output and diminishing output through the run. The M60 would run in the ~200 diminishing to ~100L range through the run, while most of the others start at around 100 and diminish to about 50 through the run in this configuration, either way, they are plenty bright for most applications here and will run for HOURS like this, in this configuration they will still be backwards compatible with CR123s as needed.

That's very very informative mdocod,

Actually I forgot to state that I actually was looking for a mod which produces about 200 SF lumens with at least 35 mins runtime.

And I have heard about cheap drop ins which do not last tat long...

I would like maybe an SF or LF drop in. Unless there are other brands which I am not aware.

The last thing I wan is a bulb to die on me during dire situations:huh:

 

[Owen]

If you like the P90, I'd encourage you to check out the Wolf Eyes 9V D26. Runtime will be a bit shorter, as the current draw is a little higher, but it's about as good as it gets in a 26mm lamp as far as beam quality goes.
P90 has always been one of my least favorite 9V LAs, in spite of being the most expensive, along with the P91.
The Digilight(out of business) and similar G&P 1.2A 9V LAs have rounder spots and are a little brighter than the P90, as I recall. Those were my favorites for R123s.
I always kept a P90 in a spare carrier while running aftermarket lamps, especially from WE and Lumens Factory, since those don't fit the SC1.
The Lumens Factory models have more spot oriented beams that throw better, but I never liked the fact that the spot was overwhelmingly bright in contrast to the spill unless a large spot was all I wanted from the beam.

A MalkOff M60 on a pair of RCR123s will run for ~40+ minutes.

1hr. 4min 50sec to protection mode on mine. I was pleasantly surprised that it broke the hour mark.

 

[mdocod]

1hr. 4min 50sec to protection mode on mine. I was pleasantly surprised that it broke the hour mark.

Wow, you're getting remarkably good runtime on that!

 

[mdocod]

If you think that is tricky. My P91 which Surefire said makes 200 lumens actually makes more. With 2 17670 AW cells and 2.6A+ at the tail MrGman measured the peak lumens at 466 out the front.:nana:

If Surefire P90 is anything like the P91 I am sure it is underated and you will get more lumens out the front than what you thought. I will make a thread to publish my work with the P90 this weekend. Hopefully it will be 200 out the front lumens.

There are several factors at play here that need to be taken into consideration before getting too excited about the lumens.

SF doesn't rate based on initial output on their incans. The ratings on their incans are from back when SF was overly honest in their ratings, so they chose a number that was more like an AVERAGE expected output through the discharge. Which means, it had to be higher on fresh cells than the rating. The P91 is probably in the 250-300 Lumen range on fresh cells, diminishing to ~150 or less at the end of the discharge.

Under the load of a P91, CR123s sag to about 2.2V per cell or less. Under the same load, a pair of large LiCo cells will hold much higher total voltage. The 400+ torch lumens being measured, are based on some significant overdrive on freshly charged cells. To compare to the SF 200 lumen to see how much you are "really" getting, I think it would be important to test the output through the discharge. I think you'd find that the average output would actually be more like 300 Lumen or less on 2x17650s.

The P90 only draws ~1.2A, under this load, CR123s operate at more like 2.5V per cell. Under the same load, a pair of LiCo cells operates (on average) at a fairly similar total voltage level. This means that the amount of overdrive that can be expected is quite a bit lower, if any at all.

If you test output on freshly charged 17670s for a P90, you will get a number way higher than 105 lumens (I am putting my money on 174 lumens). The same thing will happen on CR123s, but again, do the test as an average output through the discharge and I think you'll find that the 105 lumen rating is actually *reasonably* close to accurate overall.

-Eric

 

[bigchelis]

There are several factors at play here that need to be taken into consideration before getting too excited about the lumens.

SF doesn't rate based on initial output on their incans. The ratings on their incans are from back when SF was overly honest in their ratings, so they chose a number that was more like an AVERAGE expected output through the discharge. Which means, it had to be higher on fresh cells than the rating. The P91 is probably in the 250-300 Lumen range on fresh cells, diminishing to ~150 or less at the end of the discharge.

Under the load of a P91, CR123s sag to about 2.2V per cell or less. Under the same load, a pair of large LiCo cells will hold much higher total voltage. The 400+ torch lumens being measured, are based on some significant overdrive on freshly charged cells. To compare to the SF 200 lumen to see how much you are "really" getting, I think it would be important to test the output through the discharge. I think you'd find that the average output would actually be more like 300 Lumen or less on 2x17650s.

The P90 only draws ~1.2A, under this load, CR123s operate at more like 2.5V per cell. Under the same load, a pair of LiCo cells operates (on average) at a fairly similar total voltage level. This means that the amount of overdrive that can be expected is quite a bit lower, if any at all.

If you test output on freshly charged 17670s for a P90, you will get a number way higher than 105 lumens (I am putting my money on 174 lumens). The same thing will happen on CR123s, but again, do the test as an average output through the discharge and I think you'll find that the 105 lumen rating is actually *reasonably* close to accurate overall.

-Eric

Eric,
Very good info and super informative. When I ask MrGman to do tests he only does up to 3 minutes. I was thinking of tests as follows:
1. Surefire P90 w/ AW cr123 cells
2. Surefire P90 w/ 3 primaries
3. Surefire P90 w/ AW 18650 2600mAh improved cells..
4. Surefire P91 w/ AW 18650 2600mAh improved cells..
5. Surefire P91 w/ 3 primaries
Lumen readings will likely be every 30 seconds up to 3 minutes..

My Surefire 6P w/ 2 IMR 16340's last under 10 minutes. At right around 10 or less minutes the light gets really dim. Thus, this is not a good combo for me.

 

[325addict]

@ Zenith: you could also try my custom made (by Lumens Factory) 8V / 500mA dropin in your light. You'll have a very reasonable 1 hour runtime and it will last for 50(!) hours....
and, because of the smaller current draw, there will be less heat, no chance your plastic lens will melt...
and: as said by others before, your batteries will quickly wear out with currents of about 1.2A so with 500mA your batteries will live longer.

These lamp assemblies are incredibly bright for the current draw, I'll make them available in a group buy on the CPF forum within a week! For only $ 15,- one of these little masterpieces can be yours


Timmo.

 

[Kestrel]

@ Zenith: you could also try my custom made (by Lumens Factory) 8V / 500mA dropin in your light. You'll have a very reasonable 1 hour runtime and it will last for 50(!) hours....
and, because of the smaller current draw, there will be less heat, no chance your plastic lens will melt...
and: as said by others before, your batteries will quickly wear out with currents of about 1.2A so with 500mA your batteries will live longer.

These lamp assemblies are incredibly bright for the current draw, I'll make them available in a group buy on the CPF forum within a week! For only $ 15,- one of these little masterpieces can be yours.

Hey, congratulations on getting those lamp assemblies of yours made.:thumbsup:
I remember posting in your 'interest' thread earlier this spring.

 

[mdocod]

....and: as said by others before, your batteries will quickly wear out with currents of about 1.2A so with 500mA your batteries will live longer....


Timmo.

IMR16340s will run 1.2A (~2C) though hundreds, possibly a thousand cycles, this is not an aggressive discharge rate for LiMn chemistry cells.

 

[ampdude]

I run a P90 on 16340's all the time. Great combo!

I wish there were 18mm cells available in that length.

And of course IMR17500's.