Surefire announced 2 new SSC lights - now shipping!

[KDOG3]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

I am just about to order one SF Kroma, does anybody have the slightest rumor that they will replace the LED with Cree sometime in the near future, this year or next that is? Is it likely? Should I wait or order the regular Kroma today.

Kroma + Cree = :naughty:

I'm on the verge of ordering a Kroma and swapping the emitter to a SSC-P4. Not quite sure what I'm going to do yet....

 

[270winchester]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

BUT, I wonder how the thermal issues in the G2 will be handled?


--dan

The newer, better bins of the Cree Q-bins can squeeze 100-148 lumens ar 350mAh, so I guess if they drive the LED at around 350, then the thermal issue would be minimal, especially if they beef up the heatsink.

 

[McGizmo]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

I don't know anything about these lights but I do know that SF snagged some cream of Cree out from under some of us little guys early this year and Cree is not done raising the efficacy bar yet either.

I would guess that these lights have LED's being driven at sub 1 watt power levels and that thermal relief is well within manageable levels and runtimes could be quite impressive!! If 80 lumens of light is appropriate for the target market and optic used, there is no need to drive the LED to its max potential just because you can. Contrary to popular opinion, I am convinced that some lights are brighter than they should be; obviously context is key. I find the news of these lights refreshing. The proof remains to be seen.

 

[eyeeatingfish]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

Surprised they aren't offering more lumens, but their customers may prefer run time to lumens.

I was kind of surprised too, but as I get more into flashlights it seems that for tactical flashlights 80 is right around what you need. I would say 80-120 lumens is a good range. More than that is nice but i think the benefits start to not be worth the extra size or shorter run times.

12 hours with 80 lumens on 2 123 batteries would be awesome! Imagine if they had a low setting too.

 

[KeeperSD]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

I was kind of surprised too, but as I get more into flashlights it seems that for tactical flashlights 80 is right around what you need. I would say 80-120 lumens is a good range. More than that is nice but i think the benefits start to not be worth the extra size or shorter run times.

12 hours with 80 lumens on 2 123 batteries would be awesome! Imagine if they had a low setting too.

Not sure about your tactical situations, but i can tell you from my experience, 80 lumens isn't nearly enough for me.

That said if, and i repeat if these lights can produce that 80 lumens for 12 hours you will see my order in for my first surefire. Not for work purposes, but for around home it would be very impressive.

 

[leukos]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

I hope that G2L can take variable voltage inputs or it won't be joining my collection!

 

[KeeperSD]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

Thanks for the reminder Leukos, i didn't think about that before i posted, i will also not buy it if it can only take primaries.

 

[KDOG3]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

I just hope you can take out the module to stick in other lights, like a C2/C3 etc.

BUT with my spare 60 ohm McE2S 2 stage tailcap switch I have laying here, It would turn the G2L into a helluva disaster preparedness light!

I'm really suprised that they don't give the G2Zs' the same ability, though the might want to give their combat lights a little more punch.

 

[greenlight]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

have the red or green l1 been updated, or do they continue to use lux1?

 

[lukus]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

I just sold off (2) G2s in yellow that I had originally bought for the emergency bag. My original intent was to put in an LED drop in. My problem is that everyone is pushing the drop ins for maximum lumens (and poor heat control) and I wanted something around 25-35 lumens with a long runtime.

So +++1 for one in hi viz orange. Maybe even a glow in the dark stripe....and a wall mount clip. That would be almost mandatory equipment in any building in earthquake country or hurricane zone.

 

[wintermute]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

This is the first powerful plastic led light I've heard of. I've even been a little skeptical of titanium 3w lights for thermal reasons. We'll see.

The 80 lumen 12 hour figure is clearly not constant lumens, especially since SF rates torch lumens (so 80 SF lumens is like 110 or so Fenix lumens). They need 110 lumens coming out the led (or more), and at 110 lumens/watt (still way overoptimistic) that means 11WH, while two cr123a's have just 8 WH or so.

I'd expect some kind of gently sloping regulation.

First, nothing gets 110 lumens/watt at the moment....85-90 lumens/watt at best currently. (More on this below)

The newer, better bins of the Cree Q-bins can squeeze 100-148 lumens ar 350mAh, so I guess if they drive the LED at around 350, then the thermal issue would be minimal, especially if they beef up the heatsink.

Second, nothing is getting close to 148 lumens at 350mA. I know where you're getting that info - and I have no clue what WeLight (aka cutter) is talking about with the 148 lumens. I'm not faulting you for the info - and I wish WeLight would change his thread title.

This info from a Cree datasheet (20070330 White Reference) ...
http://ledlightingsupply.com/ledlightingsupply/Reference Materials/20070330 White Reference.pdf

Cree 7090XR-E - Lumens @350mA

P3 73.9-80.6
P4 80.6-87.4
Q2 87.4-93.9
Q3 93.9-100.4
Q4 100.4-107.0
Q5 107.0-113.6

If Surefire waits for the Q5, and they want 80 lumens, they're looking at having to run around ~275mA @ ~3.3v (going from Cree datasheets). That's 0.9 w for their 80 lumens.

(They'll probably need between 250mA and 275mA and 3.15v-3.3v = for a total of 0.8W - 0.9W)

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf <--see page 6...Electrical characteristics.

I don't know anything about these lights but I do know that SF snagged some cream of Cree out from under some of us little guys early this year and Cree is not done raising the efficacy bar yet either.

I would guess that these lights have LED's being driven at sub 1 watt power levels and that thermal relief is well within manageable levels and runtimes could be quite impressive!! If 80 lumens of light is appropriate for the target market and optic used, there is no need to drive the LED to its max potential just because you can. Contrary to popular opinion, I am convinced that some lights are brighter than they should be; obviously context is key. I find the news of these lights refreshing. The proof remains to be seen.

Exactly!

You might be able to estimate a little lower mA and Vf with something unreleased from Cree (Q6 anyone) - but I'm quite sure that McGizmo has it. A sub 1W light (as I stated above 0.8-0.9W probably) putting out 80 lumens for an extended period. Good stuff, but I want to see their BRIGHT tactical stuff.

 

[KDOG3]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

Well I just sent an email to Surefire politely badgering them for more info on these babies. Hopefully they'll divulge some more details.

 

[270winchester]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

First, nothing gets 110 lumens/watt at the moment....85-90 lumens/watt at best currently. (More on this below)

Second, nothing is getting close to 148 lumens at 350mA. I know where you're getting that info - and I have no clue what WeLight (aka cutter) is talking about with the 148 lumens. I'm not faulting you for the info - and I wish WeLight would change his thread title.

This info from a Cree datasheet (20070330 White Reference) ...
http://ledlightingsupply.com/ledlightingsupply/Reference Materials/20070330 White Reference.pdf

Cree 7090XR-E - Lumens @350mA

P3 73.9-80.6
P4 80.6-87.4
Q2 87.4-93.9
Q3 93.9-100.4
Q4 100.4-107.0
Q5 107.0-113.6

If Surefire waits for the Q5, and they want 80 lumens, they're looking at having to run around ~275mA @ ~3.3v (going from Cree datasheets). That's 0.9 w for their 80 lumens.

(They'll probably need between 250mA and 275mA and 3.15v-3.3v = for a total of 0.8W - 0.9W)

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf <--see page 6...Electrical characteristics.


Exactly!

You might be able to estimate a little lower mA and Vf with something unreleased from Cree (Q6 anyone) - but I'm quite sure that McGizmo has it. A sub 1W light (as I stated above 0.8-0.9W probably) putting out 80 lumens for an extended period. Good stuff, but I want to see their BRIGHT tactical stuff.

hmm, I find it interesting that you use the 148 numbe to discredit my entire post, while praising Don for saying almost the same things I said. I guess brown nosing has no boundary

 

[wintermute]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

hmm, I find it interesting that you use the 148 numbe to discredit my entire post, while praising Don for saying almost the same things I said. I guess brown nosing has no boundary

What?? I said "I know where you're getting that info - and I have no clue what WeLight (aka cutter) is talking about with the 148 lumens. I'm not faulting you for the info - and I wish WeLight would change his thread title."

I wasn't discrediting your entire post at all and even stated I knew where the wrong number came from. I have nothing to do with McGizmo - never talked to him...never dealt with him...nothing. The only reason I even mentioned McGizmo is because after I crunched the numbers, it came out to 0.8 - 0.9 w...exactly what McGizmo said. Dude, seriously - I was faulting no one with my post.

 

[stoven]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

These have to be drop in replacements to the bulb/reflector assemblies. The reason for the low lumen output is probably due to heat. The G2 body doesn't help dissipate heat, it insulates trapping the heat inside causing the LED to overheat.

The 6P should be able to be driven higher but it probably uses the exact same drop in.

 

[KDOG3]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

TThe reason for the low lumen output is probably due to heat.

LOL! "low lumen output". During the Luxeon days, us CPFers' would've killed to have a Surefire LED module that put out 80 lumens. Now its like, "80 lumens? Ho hum." Heh, heh...

 

[soffiler]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

Since several people are trying to do the math, I'll jump in:

- SF has a great reputation for understating lumens. Let's assume the 80 lumens are real, out-the-front lumens. They'll need about 100 lumens from the emitter.
- SF has the purchasing clout to belly up for premium bins (Q4?). So there's the necessary 100 lumens, and for my purposes we can now assume drive current is 350mA.
- let's give the buck circuit 90% efficiency.
- Vf guess of 3.2V means output is 1.1 watts, so input is 1.25 watts.
- with about 8 watt-hours stored in 2xCR123A, the arithmetic says 6.4 hours; however, the tail end of those 8 watt-hours will be at reduced voltage and a pure buck circuit will most likely drop into direct-drive. That could happen (really just wild guesses now) around 5 hours, but it is conceivable that a steadily decreasing output could persist for another few hours after that. There's almost no way I can see 11 or 12 hours however.

 

[wintermute]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

Since several people are trying to do the math, I'll jump in:

- SF has a great reputation for understating lumens. Let's assume the 80 lumens are real, out-the-front lumens. They'll need about 100 lumens from the emitter.
- SF has the purchasing clout to belly up for premium bins (Q4?). So there's the necessary 100 lumens, and for my purposes we can now assume drive current is 350mA.
- let's give the buck circuit 90% efficiency.
- Vf guess of 3.2V means output is 1.1 watts, so input is 1.25 watts.
- with about 8 watt-hours stored in 2xCR123A, the arithmetic says 6.4 hours; however, the tail end of those 8 watt-hours will be at reduced voltage and a pure buck circuit will most likely drop into direct-drive. That could happen (really just wild guesses now) around 5 hours, but it is conceivable that a steadily decreasing output could persist for another few hours after that. There's almost no way I can see 11 or 12 hours however.

The difference between my post and yours is while I tried to show how it might be possible, you try to show how it is impossible. I didn't include circuit efficiency, because that is a hard thing to guess. Micropucks produced back in 2003 running as buck circuits were getting 90% efficiency - I'm hoping they have something better (the buck circuit in the Fenix P3D seems to be good). I wasn't sure about current circuit efficiencies, so I left that out entirely...but StenLight indicates that they have a buck converter which is 96% efficient.

http://www.stenlight.com/tech-faq.htm

You also assume that they would still understate lumens, but considering they are moving into new LEDs - who is to say that they aren't going for 80 lumens at the emitter. Q4s have already shipped to smaller dealers and these don't ship until August - so it's possible given that the Q5 is outlined in their whitesheet, SureFire might get their hands on Q5s.

Given the numbers I posted above, it's possible - maybe not 12 hours of 80 lumens of constant regulation, but something close (that is...at least with 80 lumens at the emitter, a Q5, and a high efficiency buck converter).

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers - just trying to look at this from the perspective of possibility instead of impossibility.

 

[cslinger]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

Hell I would be perfectly happy to get a Surefire warrantee'd drop in assembly for my M2 that put out 80ish lumens for 2 hours. I don't need 12 hours.

 

[wintermute]

Re: Surefire announced 2 new Cree lights today!

Hell I would be perfectly happy to get a Surefire warrantee'd drop in assembly for my M2 that put out 80ish lumens for 2 hours. I don't need 12 hours.

Considering that Fenix gets 90 lumens for 4.8 hours from 2 x CR123 batteries - I wouldn't think that would be a problem. But that's another story.

(p.s. Sorry to mention Fenix in a SureFire thread, I know how you SureFire guys hate Fenix's )