Surefire G2 for Home Defense

[Bryan]

I would rather carry a 10mm with some hot ammo vs. the .357. The 10mm ammunition you will find locally is watered down and really not any better than .40 S&W. Unfortunately, you will only be able to find potent 10mm loads online unless you have a really good relationship with your local shop and beg them to order some. In the bear scenario, I'd feel more confident with the 10mm than the .357 for the simple fact in having a few extra rounds on tap.

10mm = .357 Magnum
10mm > .357 SIG; .40 S&W

 

[beezaur]

I was going from my Sierra loading handbook, working from maximum loads. I understand that the reason most 10mm ammo is downloaded these days is because a lot of guns can't handle the hot loads. For example:
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

However, I do concede that the 10mm can be made to equal, and even slightly surpass the .357 Mag, if you are so willing.

Here is Double Tap's 10mm 135-gr:

Ballistics : 1600fps/ 767 ft./lbs. - Glock 20

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=45

Compare to their .357 Mag 125-gr:

Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
Muzzle Energy: 710 ft. lbs.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=48

Back to the .40 comparison, this is maybe the hottest .40 S&W you can get:

Ballistics : 135gr. @ 1375fps / 567 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=107

And, for completeness, here is the .45 ACP I use:

Ballistics : 1010fps - 521 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl.

Keep in mind that this is a "penetration" round, not an energy dumper. Energy values don't tell you much about bullet performance with this kind of round. An energy round would be their 165-grainer:

Ballistics : 1325fps - 643 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=156
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=146

For what it is worth.

So, back to the topic of flashlights (kind of), I used the new year's fireworks orgy as an excuse to go out and do some night shooting with my .357: Goodness gracious, great balls of fire!

I was shooting with my SureFire Kroma. I found the flash-bulb effect of that gun to be significant compared to my .45 Auto. I am not sure if I can find another load with reduced muzzle flash, but it was certainly distracting. I would say the Kroma is the least amount of light I wold want (~50 lumens). It worked fine, but I would have liked over 100 lumens. The G2 would have worked well too. It is slightly brighter and has a bit more throw.

Scott

 

[Bryan]

Good info Scott.

The barrel length will be a factor as well. I'm not sure if I would feel comfortable with the Glock 29 as a bear weapon. I would probably feel more comfortable with the .357 in this case (assuming it's not a snub nose like you mentioned earlier). .357's are a lot of fun though! Much more fun than a 10mm with a standard retail load. Luckily I have never been confronted by a bear and hopefully never will!

 

[beezaur]

I'm not sure if I would feel comfortable with the Glock 29 as a bear weapon. I would probably feel more comfortable with the .357 in this case (assuming it's not a snub nose like you mentioned earlier). . . .

The .45 was the most powerful gun I had at the time. I was trying to maximize what I had with the Double Taps. I agree the .357, a 4" Ruger GP100, is better for bear duty, and it has replaced the .45 in that role. It still is not as much gun as I would like (for bear), but I can conceal it, which is one of my criteria.

The guy who pointed me to the Double Tap related his bear encounter. He was camping when a bear stuck its head in his tent one night. The guy smacked the bear with his gun, then emptied all 8 hardball-equivalent lead bullets into the bear. It was a DRT -- Dead Right There, ruled a legal shoot by the authorities.

Not an ammo test a guy would volunteer for, nor the guaranteed outcome, but proves it can be done with a full .45.

Scott

 

[bfg9000]

Ok, this is getting into a tangent, but a .40 S&W is not comparable to a .357 Mag.

A .40 S&W is less powerful than a .45 ACP, which is less powerful than a .357 Mag.

Yes, I agree that the hottest .357 is indeed hotter than the hottest .40S&W, but let's look at what a LEO might actually be issued:

Speer Gold Dot
.357Mag 158gr. 1235fps 535ft-lbs
.40S&W 155gr. 1200fps 496ft-lbs
.45ACP 185gr. 1050fps 453ft-lbs
9mmL 147gr. 985fps 317ft-lbs

Cor-Bon JHP
.357Mag 125gr. 1400fps 544ft-lbs
.40S&W 135gr. 1325fps 526ft-lbs
.45ACP+P 165gr. 1250fps 573ft-lbs
9mmL+P 125gr. 1250fps 434ft-lbs

Not looking so different now, is it? All of them make wounds that look pretty much the same, and my only argument is that none of them are even close to a shotgun:

Federal
12ga slug 438gr. 1610fps 2555ft-lbs

The full-tilt 10mm really pushes the limits of case pressure (the .357 has far more case volume) which is hard on equipment but the real reason the low-powered "FBI load" 10mm came about is most agents were uncomfortable firing a .357 equivalent from a pistol that weighed half of what an N-frame revolver weighs. That's a great bear story too but I also wouldn't want to have to count on braining a bear with a handgun either

Just so you know, my very first handgun was a S&W .41 Magnum. I quickly found out there's no ".41 Special" or factory low-powered option as there is with .357 and .44, so it didn't see much use. Yes, I could handload them now, but at the time it was quite a handful and not very pleasant with its wood grips. Plus now it's just a shelf queen...

BTW the .357 is .38 caliber / 9mm

 

[beezaur]

BTW the .357 is .38 caliber / 9mm

I was rounding (truncating) with the .35 caliber bit. I have this irrational dislike for false precision, which I guess makes me seem like a novice at times. How did "38 caliber" get started anyway? Cap and ball revolvers? They are nowhere near actual .38 caliber.

The .40 S&Wis a great improvement over a 9mm. Probably it is the most efficient handgun caliber with respect to stopping power: enough, but not more.

The bear guy shot it in the chest. He said several of the bullets lodged under its shoulder blades on the far side of the thoracic caivity, if memory serves. So it was a "boiler room" kill, not a brain shot.

Scott

 

[chalshus]

blind an intruder

Are there lots of dangerous intruders in your neighbourhood?

The M4 Devestator should do the job properly.

 

[bfg9000]

Naah, you sure don't sound like any novice. It's just that sometimes people seem to get so worked up over how much better one handgun round is over another that they fail to realize all of them are severely limited by what the average person can handle. So much so that most of them end up performing about the same in real life when using typical factory loads. Similar enough anyway (compared to long guns that is... a .30-06 is 180gr. 2600fps, 2701 ft-lbs) that the practical differences are marginal. I mean they all have the same limitations and shot placement is just as critical with all of them, so why not just shoot whatever you can shoot best?

The human animal is amazingly tough but not nearly as hard to stop as a bear, plus when you're not at home, portability is everything (if it's too big, you won't have it on you when you need it most). At home I'd grab a hotwire Mag, but a G2 will do fine for carry because I'm not about to walk around everywhere with a big ole Mag. Similarly, is a .380 better than nothing? You betcha (but nowadays when you can get .40 in something as tiny as a Kahr, there's seldom reason to resort to such calibers for carry...) and at home you can keep something larger, more powerful, and especially easier to use. A .454 Casull or .500S&W would be a terrible self-defense weapon for me because the tradeoff in recovery time (no double-tap there!) isn't worth the extra power against a person, but I'd certainly rather have one of those than a .45 if faced with a bear! Thing is, I'd much rather have a rifle in that case than any of those too...

As for "maximum" loads: while a private citizen can indeed choose double-throw-down super-duper +P+ "hot" loads, Harry pointed out that a legal defense is already $25k-100k without your lawyer having to answer questions about why you decided regular factory ammo that's good enough for the cops wasn't lethal enough for you. And nothing can help you if you ever use a handload in self-defense.

 

[pete7226]

Just put all of whatever your carrying in the right place, knockdown power is a myth. I've unloaded 9 rounds of .45 in people along with 21 rounds of 9mm from other p.o.'s and the person still took 2-3 seconds to drop. Thank god he was just carrying a knife and not a gun, im sure he would have gotten several rounds off. They were all center mass hits, but NOT Central Nervous System Hits. That being said, the bigger the round the better the effect. Period. I will never go back to a 9mm after seeing the wound cavitation of my .45 and the damage it did to bone mass on this person that was lacking with the 9mm rounds, this has been documented hundreds of times in Police shootings and experienced first hand by me in the close to 100 shootings Ive seen. If I could carry a bazooka, I would.

 

[highorder]

I'm glad we have some bonafide LEO's here to offer real world anecdotes, instead of the armchair commando lines that people (myself included, on occasion) readily offer.

 

[ugrey]

Gentlemen, In my experience 65 lumens is not a lot of light. 105 lumens are better, and 200 or 500 are much better. In my pocket I usually only carry 60(E2e) or maybe 200(Z3 w/P91) lumens. In an inside coat pocket I often have 225 lumens, a SF 12P (9P+extender+12V LA). I would carry a spotlight if it fit. At home, next to my bed I keep a SF M6 (500 lumens). I want to ID and dominate an Intruder with light so I will not have to shoot. It seems to me some of you need more lumens at home.

 

[Bryan]

I want to ID and dominate an Intruder with light so I will not have to shoot.

I know Surefire claims their lights will "temporarily blind" a person but in reality that doesn't stop the threat. I wouldn't use my lights to ID a person, I would use them to make sure I don't miss when I pull the trigger.

Not sure what you mean by dominate an intruder though.

 

[bfg9000]

 

[frasera]

if the guys also got a gun, i think an obvious bright flashlight beam is going to make shooting you very easy, he can see you coming. he's got eyes aclimated to darkness, and your beam of light rounding the corner tells him exactly where to shoot.

"replaced guns with knives and now torches or flashlights as the yanks call them."
thats too bad, guns are the great equalizer, it gives granny the same power to protect herself as any youngster. you can't say the same about a knife.

 

[bones_708]

Yeh great, shooting in the dark is much safer?????
:shrug:
Anyway the G2 is a tactical light designed with that in mind.

 

[BrighTor]

MY mistake, I got my .454 and .45 mixed up,

32084.454 Casull300JHP1,6501,813

Thanks for very politely pointing it out.

Maybe it's because I'm largely ignorant of this whole field, but I kind of thought he was joking about the "led" typo and the LED being a tracer. But again, I can't really speak for the poster.

Other than that, nothing really to add to the conversation other than I have an x10 wireless lighting control pad on my nightstand so I don't think I'll be "snoop and poop"ing around my house in the dark. I do own firearms, but they're for hunting and target shooting and I hope they're never needed for home defense.

 

[ugrey]

The 10X, 500 lumen rechargeable, is named the Dominator. I am glad my use of the word gave some of you your jollies for the day. :0
To quote from Surefires 2003 catalog, page 65 "Reports from the street indicate that blasting a would be felon's eyes with the M6 is often enough to end resistance without the need for any further escalation of force." The M6 light blast is an option before you pull the trigger.

 

[hburner]

BrighTor, that would be cool to have an LED for a tracer behind that round, that way you could watch it go in and maybe come out! Just kiddin, hb.

 

[Harry]

As for "maximum" loads: while a private citizen can indeed choose double-throw-down super-duper +P+ "hot" loads, Harry pointed out that a legal defense is already $25k-100k without your lawyer having to answer questions about why you decided regular factory ammo that's good enough for the cops wasn't lethal enough for you. And nothing can help you if you ever use a handload in self-defense.

Read the above referenced quote and commit it to memory.

Should you decide that a handload is the ammunition of choice in a smallarm chosen for threat management, then you did not get your full return on your investment in whatever training you paid for.

If you are involved in an actual shooting using a handload as the ammunition discharged you might as well save yourself a lot of money and just plead guility at the first opportunity that is presented to you.

Any fool can manipulate the firing mechinism of a firearm. The true skill is in knowing when one should not even think about doing so.

Harry

 

[highorder]

you might as well save yourself a lot of money and just plead guility at the first opportunity that is presented to you.

you were making a great point without the scare tactics. my Constitution emplores me to preserve my rights, not freely waive them.

regardless of the details of your prosecution, you have the right to due process, and a jury of your peers to decide your fate.