Surefire G2 for Home Defense

besafe2

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I keep my Surefire 6P with my pistol. Home invadors are the worst of the worst. If some one is kicking your door in in the middle of the night you can be sure it is not the "ordinary thief". They have done this before & have an extensive record & you can be sure they plan to do harm.
While I pray that I will never have to defend my home & family I have made sure that I train & have a mindset to do this. As far as what comes later those bridges will be crossed then but my family & I will survive.
 

Tactical Sponge

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bfg9000 said:
Don't think deterrence works? According to the UN, England's crime rate is highest among all industrialized nations and now even higher than Russia or South Africa. Why? Because criminals can operate with impunity and the law prosecutes those who resist.
Although crime in the UK is high, there's no evidence that it is the result of disarming the people. This is according to The Straight Dope.
 

RobbW

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Maximum_DL said:
Although crime in the UK is high, there's no evidence that it is the result of disarming the people. This is according to The Straight Dope.

I read the link and it doesn't refute Malcom's study at all (which it purports): it offers no new data or even statistical re-interpretation of old data. At best, it presents some anecdotes--some of which are on point, some of which are not. It's almost as though the author began with a firm belief, then assembled some random musings around that belief for support.
 

Tactical Sponge

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RobbW said:
I read the link and it doesn't refute Malcom's study at all (which it purports): it offers no new data or even statistical re-interpretation of old data. At best, it presents some anecdotes--some of which are on point, some of which are not. It's almost as though the author began with a firm belief, then assembled some random musings around that belief for support.
The Straight Dope is a newspaper column, so the author cannot possibly provide an extensive rebuttal of Malcolm's views. But the author points out that crime in the UK rose sharply well before the banning of handguns.

However, you may be right about him finding evidence to support a preexisting belief; Cecil Adams has said that he is a liberal in a past column.
 

beezaur

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Actually, the article highlights the importance of using a good light in home defence. Mr. Robbed-6-times-crazy-guy evidently just started blasting away with a long gun when he was shined with a flashlight.

The morality of killing an intruder aside (please!), the occupant used bad tactics. Evidently the main thing that got him in trouble was that he shot unarmed men.

The problem with using an unlighted shotgun in home defense is this: you are shooting at something you can't see that well. What if is your drunken brother-in-law? What if it is the cat or some wild animal?

I would submit that there are times when you don't want to pull the trigger and splatter greasy burglar-juice all over everything.

I know, I know, it is shocking -- sometimes shooting someone is more trouble than it is worth. ;)

How about a nice revolver and a G2? Maybe none of that mess would have happened if a good flashlight was in hand.

Scott
 

AndyTiedye

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beezaur said:
Shoot him. You have prepare to do that beforehand, but if you have, it is the safest option.

Scott

I believe the original context included one of your loved-ones being held hostage.
You are armed with a shotgun.

How are you going to shoot him without shooting the hostage?
 

Paladin

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AndyTiedye said:
I believe the original context included one of your loved-ones being held hostage. You are armed with a shotgun. How are you going to shoot him without shooting the hostage?

12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.

Paladin
 

AndyTiedye

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beezaur

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AndyTiedye said:
I believe the original context included one of your loved-ones being held hostage.
You are armed with a shotgun.

How are you going to shoot him without shooting the hostage?

Take some self defense training. It is surprising what you can do with a little training and the audacity to put it to use.

But, just for the sake of argument, say you do want to shoot them with shotgun loaded with shot, without advancing in any way. The pattern will have a finite (and predictable) size at various ranges. At close ranges the pattern actually can be quite small, depending on how your gun is set up. So, it is possible to be somewhat selective with shot placement using a shotgun. You just have to practice and be well aware of what the pattern is doing.

You'll notice that I am not an advocate of using a shotgun for home defense. This kind of scenario is one of many where a handgun with a laser aiming device comes out ahead.

The most important thing is having some tactics with which to counter an attack. The best means to learn these is to take some training. But you still have to practice them to be any good.

Scott
 

hburner

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One of the reasons that I got back into the lights was being broken into, me not at home of course. Everybody has there own thoughts on everything so here is mine, for what is worth of course.

If I were to get awakened in the night with someone breaking in or already in my home, the first thing in hand is the .45ACP that sleeps right above my head. Second is which ever torch that I have placed beside it on that perticular night. Be it my C3 w/P91 and 2 18500s, Superfire bored out w/ 2 18650s and P91, mag85 with med. stipple reflector and 3 D size Li-ions, etc.

I have been trained with firearm training through the NC DOC and came in with a Master shooting badge. I have been trained with them also in self-defense tactics. Myself and freinds from work go to the gym often and I am not exactly a wus. All this said to say this, I may very well get myself shot with my own gun, I may very well get my but kicked in my own house, I may very well have my Mag85 taken away from me and get blinded and then beat by it. But I really just do not think that that will happen, regardless, noises in the night get responded to with a bright light and 280 grains of led. A good bright light is always a bonus in your corner when you do not know what is in the darkness ahead, inside or out. hburner. 2 cents worth.
 

choppers

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Paladin said:
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.

Paladin
It is amazing how the sound of a 12 gauge will make a intruder think twice!!
 

bfg9000

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beezaur said:
You'll notice that I am not an advocate of using a shotgun for home defense. This kind of scenario is one of many where a handgun with a laser aiming device comes out ahead.
I'd take a shotgun over any handgun for home defense any day of the week, because if I have to shoot I want to be sure they stop. I've treated people with multiple gunshot wounds (comes from working at the county hospital...) including one guy with 27 hits that the cops still had to wrestle to the ground (he lived, too). At the ranges we are talking about (less than 15 feet) the pattern is never going to be larger than a few inches even at maximum choke, which means a laser aiming device could be a reasonable addition to a shotgun also. I don't want to have to count on getting a headshot because that's hard enough to do in CS when you aren't under stress.
icon12.gif


And even 230gr is pretty heavy for an led. Maybe a .44 one...
 
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beezaur

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bfg9000 said:
I'd take a shotgun over any handgun for home defense any day of the week, because if I have to shoot I want to be sure they stop. I've treated people with multiple gunshot wounds (comes from working at the county hospital...) including one guy with 27 hits that the cops still had to wrestle to the ground (he lived, too). . . .

I would guess the person shot 27 times was hit by a volley of 9mms? I cannot imagine that it was .45s or .357s. For people who have never shot a full-power .357 Mag, it is difficult to appreciate what a mouse gun the 9mm is by comparison.

Anyway, not all 12-ga loads are effective stoppers. A 12-ga with birdshot is not so good.

The main reasons I favor a handgun over a shotgun (or long gun of any type) are these:
- handguns can be used easily with flashlights
- handguns fare much better at contact distance

I think a weapon-mounted light is the next best lighting alternative for shotguns, but you still have the contact distance problem and the issue of having to point your loaded gun at everything you want to see.

Scott
 

bfg9000

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Actually the issued duty weapon was being switched from 9mm to 40s&w at the time so it was both of those. 40s&w is no weenie round; it is ballistically similar to .357 with similar bullet weight and velocity. If anything it has the advantage from being 1mm larger. Obviously he didn't get hit anywhere too vital but since he was able to fight on even with solid hits in the chest and abdomen it just goes to show that real life is nothing like the movies.

I hear a lot about the .357 being the ultimate man-stopper, mostly because of Marshall & Sanow's "One shot stop" (OSS) statistics which are no more scientific than using insurance payout data to judge what is the safest car. Statistically, an old Volvo 240 wagon is a safer car than a new $86,000 Mercedes S-Class despite having no airbags, pyrotechnic seatbelts, stability control or ABS. Why is this? The people who drive old Volvos tend to be much older and take fewer risks. Similarly, .357 Mag (the OSS champion according to M&S) shooters tend to be much older and more skilled, plus have fewer rounds so place their shots more carefully than spray and pray high-cap 9mm types.

Fackler's ballistic gelatin produces a large "temporary stretch cavity" from even handgun rounds. Some equate this "kinetic energy dump" with "stopping power" but Fackler himself debunked this by pointing out that this shock wave was insufficient to cause trauma to living tissue no matter how impressive it looked. Despite this, many people with no background in physiology believe it somehow causes some kind of "neural shock" so larger is better. All I can say is the real wounds just look like someone stuck them with a large screwdriver, and they clearly did not stop a lot of people. With hunting rounds, the shock wave is clearly powerful enough to tear tissue, but no handgun the typical person can fire is like that.

Don't get me wrong, it is surprisingly easy for people to get killed from any kind of firearm (the .22LR is incredibly, a good OSS round). But realize that even after you have inflicted a mortal wound, they can still kill you before they finally die, especially considering you wouldn't have fired your weapon unless you were in immediate, mortal danger. In that light it is best to consider no handgun cartridge to be very "powerful" because placement is so critical (I've seen a LOT of gunshot victims walk in). I consider it a last ditch type of weapon to be carried when concealment is required and used mostly to allow rapid retreat unless you are a LEO.

I rarely see anyone with two shotgun wounds and then never from the same direction. True it's less than ideal in a hand to hand combat situation, but I really hope if you're going to be walking around with a shotgun that you'd also carry a handgun as backup. There is another disadvantage of the shotgun though: virtually none of them are "drop safe" so they can fire if dropped with a round in the chamber.

Speaking on the lighting issue; this is your HOME we are talking about here so there is no reason you cannot just wire up 10,000 watts of light to Clappers and be prepared to light the whole place up. I mean why consider planning to fumble around with a G2 in your own dark house as being prepared?
 

hburner

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MY mistake, I got my .454 and .45 mixed up,

32084.454 Casull300JHP1,6501,813

Thanks for very politely pointing it out.


Bisley said:
Who makes a 280 grain led in .45 caliber?
And does it act like a tracer when you shoot it?
LOL!!
 

beezaur

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bfg9000 said:
Actually the issued duty weapon was being switched from 9mm to 40s&w at the time so it was both of those. 40s&w is no weenie round; it is ballistically similar to .357 with similar bullet weight and velocity. If anything it has the advantage from being 1mm larger. . . .

Ok, this is getting into a tangent, but a .40 S&W is not comparable to a .357 Mag.

A .40 S&W is less powerful than a .45 ACP, which is less powerful than a .357 Mag.

Here is a little story of how I discovered the power of the .357 mag firsthand:

My wife and I live in a rural area, and recently discovered that we have a black bear hanging around the house. I carry a .45 Auto, which is a lot of handgun, but this is a bear. I asked around about the best .45 Ammo for defence againsta bear, was pointed to Double Tap ammo -- they have a 230-gr loaded pretty hot.

So I got some, and sure enough, it is pretty snappy. I would say it about doubles the "splatter factor" into my soil backstop. Pretty impressive compared to the regular hardball stuff I shoot.

Then comes my birthday, when my wife gets me a .357 revolver. .35-caliber projectile at about mach 1.5. No big deal, right? Wrong. 6 shots, and pain. One Hogue Monogrip later it is a lot better to shoot, but this is significantly more powerful than the .45s, even the Double Taps.

To be fair to the .40s, a 10mm approaches the .357 mag, but still does not equal it.

If you get a chance to shoot a .357 Mag revolver, do it. It is a real eye-opener. (A word of caution: pass on a snubbie. The recoil is that bad.)

Scott
 
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