Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WORSE?

After reading the thread 'Surefire U2 Close to Being Delivered', I think that SureFire is getting way, way too heavy handed in how they treat their dealers...the remaining dealers they still 'graciously' allow to sell their lights with their ever more fascist-like pricing and other 'policies', IMHO.

I love Surefire lights, but with increasing competition from other manufacturers, I think it's time to BOYCOTT THE U2! I MEAN 280 FREAKIN' DOLLARS?????? H@LL NO!

OK, rant mode off. Sort of.

Remember when the A2 came out at an unrealistically high price? I made the same suggestion for boycotting that light, and SureFire lowered the price.

I hope somebody at SureFire is following these threads on the U2.

Wake up.

If the US Government doesn't give you a Haliburtan-like lucrative contract for the U2, your only market is...US!!!!

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY but a card carrying CPF member, flashaholic is going to spend anywhere NEAR your price for the U2.

And I think it's about time you woke up and took a look at what your *competition* is making, and charging for their products.

Their quality is approaching SureFire's, at a fraction of the price, in my opinion.

So speak with your wallets. SureFire is seriously getting out of hand, I think!

Can you say 'price-fixing' lawsuit? It's not impossible.

Those more familiar with price-fixing Federal regulations are welcome to weigh in with their opinions of what's going on with SureFire pricing and other 'policies' toward their distributors.

I'm not a lawyer, and all this is just my opinion, for what it's worth. But, it smells very, very bad to me..... what if gets worse? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sick2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad71.gif

It's a free country (sort of) and a capitalistic society. Vote with your wallet. Plenty of nice lights out there, plenty of suppliers are willing to build what you want at a reasonable price.

Brand name recognition has a value - what are you willing to pay for ?

I don't think Surefire has anything to worry about. They have way more demand than Supply (which is one reason they are always backordered). They have military and law enforcement contracts.

I bet the reason behind forcing dealers to sell at MSRP is that Surefire would rather eventually have everyone buy the lights from them. Surefire probably doesn't make as much money when dealers sell the lights (since the dealer pay well less than MSRP from Surefire). When people buy directly from Surefire, the full price goes straight to Surefire. Granted, there is overhead and other costs, but I suspect Surefire makes more money when people buy right from them. Since they already sell more lights than they can make, they can afford to lose dealers and some individual customers.

Yes, the policies suck and I too hate the policies, but from a capitalistic point of view I can understand why they do this. I don't agree with it, but this is a business and they are out to make bucks first.

I think long term this strategy could backfire, but in the short term as long as demand exceeds supply I think Surefire won't suffer from this policy.

Boycott Surefire? I don't think so. Until a light comes out that can match them or exceed them, I'll stick with Surefire. Some lights are built as well as Surefire, some have beam quality as good as Surefire, but I can't think of one other maker that does both (and also matches Surefire in all other areas) as well as Surefire does.

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

I am lost? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

How is SureFire becoming Maglight? Surefire is asking more and more for their lights, on the other hand, I have never seen maglight ever raise their price the last twenty years...

I have never seen maglight coming out with new products since solitare either! Yet, Surefire continues to lead the LED flashlight technology. All those R&D take lots of $$$ and someone has to pay fore it.

Other manufacturers can be copycatters and just follow Surefire footsteps, but without someone willing to pay top $$$ allowing the R&D to recoup the costs, I am sure we will see the "solitare" from Surefire, soon. I don't want that to happen...

Let those who are willing to pay...buy at Surefire price.

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Get a G2 if you dont want to pay the high prices.

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Or make your own.

Nobody is forcing you to buy their product.

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Well as long as Surefire dosent start sueing people I'll probably stick with them, unless, of course, something just as good or better, at a better price comes along.

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Gandalf, I am with you. Surefire does not make the best lights anymore, the service is much worse then few years ago, and prices are over the roof.

As it was pointed out, demand is higher then supply, and for the members that remember Microeconomics 102, it leads to shortage. Federal contracts are great...

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

If there is someone as good or better than SureFire with a lower price, I would like to know about it. Until that happens, I am sticking with SureFire even though I agree with the initiator of this thread. I am willing to pay for the best that I can afford (and in the U2 or L5's case, more than I can afford /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif). If the best is SureFire, even with the good and the bad, so be it. I don't like their prices, but I sure love their lights. At least I don't have an expensive hobby(obsession) like cars, boats, motorcycles, etc...

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

SureFire's priced themselves well out my range, but they never seemed intent on capturing the plebian share of the market. Us little folks have oodles and oodles of wonderful, lower-cost lights to keep us occupied and SureFire will continue to be a specialty retailer that caters to its target market of high-end users, military and police customers.

I CAN agree with Gandalf that SureFire is no longer priced reasonably for an average person, nor is their customer service getting better from what I can tell. Of course, if SureFire cut out the dealers and lower-end users, they'd not have to sink so much into support, right? SureFire was being nice when they opened up their lights to everyone to buy...and it invited a lot of the problems that come when the hoi polloi is allowed access to their product.

I think it is perfectly OK to dislike SureFire lights and it's also OK to like them, too. I think what is happening is the natural effect of market forces driving SureFire back to the top (like cream rising) and new lights that have good features and lower prices are flooding in at the bottom to keep the overall market stable. Us peasants will be happy with our Inovas and Nuwais and Streamlights and the folks that can afford them will be happy with the innovation of SureFire.

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Seriously though, fellow CPF'ers, are there any companies or even modders out there that are just as good if not better than SureFire for less money? I care more about the quality than whose name is on the light. I guess I just don't know what else is out there... Is there anyone on this forum or knows of a company who can make the equivalent of the L5 Lumamax or better for less money. I really would like to know. After all, I thought I knew a lot about flashlights untill I came to this forum. I have soooo much to learn.

[ QUOTE ]
357 said:
I bet the reason behind forcing dealers to sell at MSRP is that Surefire would rather eventually have everyone buy the lights from them. Surefire probably doesn't make as much money when dealers sell the lights (since the dealer pay well less than MSRP from Surefire). When people buy directly from Surefire, the full price goes straight to Surefire. Granted, there is overhead and other costs, but I suspect Surefire makes more money when people buy right from them. Since they already sell more lights than they can make, they can afford to lose dealers and some individual customers.


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt very seriously that this is the case. Strict enforcement of MSRP's is a pretty common practice with companies that can get away with it. Why I think they do it:
1. If every dealer makes a bunch of money on every SF they sell, and they aren't competing with each other on price, then guess what - their ability to pressure SF for lower prices is reduced. I'd guess at MSRP the dealer is making 40-50 points (maybe it's more than that) on some of the SF's - this is good margin.
2. High and consistent MSRP's helps cement the value of the light. How do I know surefire is good? Well, it must be - look at the price, and yet people pay it. This helps establish their premium branding.
3. It helps insure that dealers compete on quality and service, not just pricing.

Since there aren't too many lights that compete directly with them in their market segment, a price war would mostly end up being against themselves, and that's not too smart.

Look, even if someone produces a light that's comparable quality, flexibility, and reliability to theirs, and that gains traction with professionals, how much sense does it make to make the light massively cheaper? The high-end lights are a niche market - it's all about profit margin because it sure as heck isn't about volume. Suppose someone produces a clone of the M6, for $150. How many more of them would they sell than a SF M6? If it's not more than 5 or 6 times as many, then it wasn't really worth it, was it?

It's not a very end-user friendly policy, I'll grant you that. But the rigid msrp pricing policy is nice for the company when they can get away with it.

I've seen worse policies. I have a fairly high-end watch (at least it seems high-end to me!) that my wife purchased for me over the internet. Big mistake. It's gray market, and the serial number was apparently rather skillfully removed with a laser. It's nearly impossible to get any authorized dealer for the watch company to repair this watch. Most of them will not even look at a watch without a serial number because the company will not allow it. Discovering that your $800 watch can't easily be repaired is a real drag.

Very interesing post. I have always had the same thought about SF prices. For example, 3 of my friends bought the SF8NX comanders with chargers for 99.99 at gunshows, stores etc. By the time i got the guts to plunk down the $100.00 dollars for a light the lights went up to 125.00 to 150.00.

Also, i have noticed that most of SF prices have gone up over the years. I have older gun magazines and am surprized at how much cheaper SF lights used to be.

At least maglights have gone down in prices over the years. Who knows, maybe SF may do the same one day.....maybe....

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Most of the points made in this thread are pretty obvious, and I won't go there, but there's an invalid assumption creeping into a number of them that maybe somebody needs to point out.

The implied assumption is that, so long as nobody else makes a better light for the same price, we have to keep buying SureFires.

Good grief, why? Have you looked at your sig lines? Most of you have flashlights coming out your ears, and I'm getting there.

We don't HAVE to buy anything.

I've been fortunate the last couple of years, and frankly, I could drop $300 on a light and never miss it. That doesn't mean I enjoy the thought of being "taken" any more than anyone else.

IMHO, you probably do have some leverage here, if you want to use it. Yes, SureFire has military and government contracts. Does anyone seriously think the U2 is targeted at those? it's not a weapon light. It's too big to pocket for EDC for most people. It's a lot heavier than it needs to be for the light output, and it's too gimmicky, too many settings, to appeal to most military and government buyers. It practically screams "New Improved Ultra Deluxe Model", which doesn't go over with most government agencies where they have to justify these things (NASA exluded). Yeah, they have a lot of military and government contracts, but it sure looks like THIS light is targeted at ONE specific market.

Enthusiasts.

You.

But, you are the market that least "NEEDS" to buy any light.

So, yes, I think you may have an opportunity here to "vote" with your dollars and make a difference. Maybe, just maybe, they miscalculated this time. However, if you keep blindly buying whatever's offered with rationalizations like "it's still the best for the money, that's why I have to pay $1,200 for flashlight number 382..", then that's never going to happen, is it?

I have no particular stake in which way this goes, make your own decisions, live with the consequences, I'm probably set for awhile.

Personally, while I MIGHT pay $300 for a light, the U2 isn't it.

I didn't make my M@glight analogy clear. My opinion is: M@glight: known for tryannical lawsuits.

Sur@fire: known for tryannical pricing and dealer 'policy', at least in my opinion.

Perhaps I wouldn't be as pissed as I am if I could afford $280 for a U2. But that's enough money to put four *good* new tires on my '88 Honda.

When you look at SureFire's price increases over the last 3 years, you can see they are making tremendous, outrageous profits, IMHO.

I recall I paid $52, delivered, for a HA E2 about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago.

With the 'dealer price policy', and SureFire's price increases, the cost of that light has gone up at least 50%, I think. (And my net earnings have gone down by about 10% per year, over the past 3 years but that's my problem /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif).

Predatory pricing? I don't know. Has a nice ring to it, though.

good point in your last post, Gandalf. prices are up @ least 50%.

i'd LUV to own a Surefire L4 or L2, but i wont be able to afford one for years to come, and by that time they'll be outdated.

but like Socom said, look @ what a modder could do for you for $200-$300. or half that. or a third of that.

you could get a HA3 Minimag with a drop in and epoxied head and have a light about as tough as a Surefire. IF THAT SUITS YOUR TASTE.

you could get an Inova T1/2/3/4 and have a light that i personally think is TOUGHER than a Surefire, IF THAT SUITS YOUR TASTE.

etc etc

but say those other lights aren't quite what you're looking for... say you want a Surefire L2. what do you REALLY have for options? y'know?

personally i don't think their lights are straight up worth their prices. in fact, i think it's safe to say they're really not.

but that's what they're selling for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

There was a long, drawn-out thread on the Underground about SF's pricing policies months ago.

Register and surf on over to the Flashlight Industry forum for more info.

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Don't assume that every manufacturer wants vertical integration of their own market.

There are expenses associated with being a retailer that most people don't realize - such as maintaining an inventory, renting prime retail space, hiring a bunch of customer service and sales staff to deal with countless small buyers. Also unattractive for a manufacturer - substantially increased time to payback, inventory sitting on the books for much longer periods of time, and countless small outgoing shipments/incoming payments.

Did I mention cashflow? Noone likes to maintain big enventories that sit around for months on end, be it in the form of raw materials, piece parts, assemblies, finished products, or packaged products awaiting shipment to the end-customer. While it's inefficient to the end-customer to go through so many layers to get their product, manufacturers can only control their own micro-economy.

Most manufacturers like to concentrate on manufacturing. They make good money doing it and can stay good at it so long as they limit their focus.

Also - ever notice that when most manufacturers sell direct to the public their prices are worse than most other retailers carrying their product? It's so they won't compete with their own distribution channel or be forced into vertical integration.

My inflationary $0.02 ...

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

[ QUOTE ]
idleprocess said:
There was a long, drawn-out thread on the Underground about SF's pricing policies months ago.

Register and surf on over to the Flashlight Industry forum for more info.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I have been there and I don't need to be insulted . 14 year LEO. I have a job, been there, done that. Don't need a 12 year old printing cuss words at me because I don't agree with the party line. Sorry I don't want to go to "The Other Side".

Re: Is SureFire becoming the next M@glight? Or WOR

Guys, relax.

I don't like the marketing policies, and the dealer policies, but I like the engineering. That in my book is perfectly alright. When I deal with a large company, often it is big enough that each individual department has its own culture, its own way of working, and the rest is simply not up to them. I bet Engineering builds the lights - and Marketing sets prices. Unfortunately, to get to Engineering, I have to put up with Marketing..

As far as I know there are only a few lights with this kind of variable power control, and they are all in that price range. Hotbeam's awesome PocketMate-W, the amazing Lionheart that needs no explanation (it just owns), and the U2. They are around that price, perhaps a little cheaper because our modders don't have the same overheads as large corporates. But you do have a choice. For example, perhaps I may find the Aleph System a little expensive ($215, thereabouts). Does it make it any less of a great system than it is? Nope. Do I HAVE to buy it? Not if I would prefer to allocate the scarce funds elsewhere. Push come to shove I can live with less. If I had to EDC a $30 G2 or a $30 Streamlight Jr Lux, I WOULD.

Personally, I don't see how we can put enough pressure on SF Marketing to change their policies. I should know, I'm an international customer, and if you guys think it's bad, we can't even *BUY* the darn things even if we are prepared to pay for them! There is *NO* official reseller in my area!

A boycott may not do much either, because half the world is beating a path to SF's door over the U2, pricing, or whatever - regardless. If the TW waiting list is anything to go by...

I know that some of you are upset, and that is perfectly ok, I agree with you that we're not getting the best deal possible. But take heart, that's what the modders are for. If I wasn't waiting for the U2 who knows what else I may have bought and loved instead?