Red Light Traffic Cameras

[appliancejunk]

I received a red light ticket from the great state of South Dakota one time.
The ticket that come in the mail had a link that I could view online with my ticket number and maybe password from what I remember. It must have been over 5 years ago now, but I do remember the photos online clearly showed my face, license plate, front and back of the car. It also included a video or time-lapse that looked like a video of me making a right hand turn on the red light without coming to a complete stop first.

Thought for sure I had stopped and was mad at first when I got the ticket in the mail, but after seeing the evidence online I clearly rolled right through the red light.

From what I recall the ticket was just over $100 back then.

 

[will]

+

will, they'll have the necessary photos for the ticket.

The much bigger issue is we are at the tip of the iceberg regarding robo-ticketing, the $ potential is huge and it will be easily lobbied.
.... most concerning to me is the little block box in every new car that can phone home on everything you do.

What do you think Snapshot is on some insurance,
it's a way for them to prove you did something wrong (or outside laws in any way) & you will be found liable in incidents.

Hell, the little red light cam is nothing compared to what will likely come..

I like to have an understanding of how things work. And for the life of me, I can't figure out how one camera/sensor can figure out who is going through the light and then take a picture of the back.

I might have read somewhere that there are now some 'speeding' cameras. These take a picture of cars if they are exceeding the speed limit and then mail the ticket. New York has installed a few 'radar' signs. These flash your speed in green if you are under or at the speed limit. Then red if you are over the limit. Only a matter of time before they put cameras on these.

Computer controlled traffic lights - this can be done, but there are a lot of variables that have to be taken into account. From what I remember - they generally are set at 5 MPH above the speed limit. Not every road is a good candidate for this automation. How many times have you sat at a red light, no other cars at any of the other streets...

Black boxes in cars - depends on how they are used/abused. We all break the rules a little bit every now and then. Ten MPH over the limit to pass someone. Speeding up a bit to get through the light so the car behind does not hit you.

 

[jtr1962]

Black boxes in cars - depends on how they are used/abused. We all break the rules a little bit every now and then. Ten MPH over the limit to pass someone. Speeding up a bit to get through the light so the car behind does not hit you.

I personally take a natural law approach to this. That basically means the government can only penalize in the event of injury, or loss of life or property. Therefore, we should only pull black box data if there has actually been a collision. Having a car "phone home" if you're speeding might well violate the Fifth Amendment. Even speed cameras or red light cameras are into questionable territory in that you're being incriminated by a machine.

I think just the thought that black box data will be pulled in the event of a collision is enough to get most drivers to err on the side of caution. Railroad engineers have to deal with this on a daily basis. As a result, speed limits are railroads are seldom exceeded.

 

[louie]

I like to have an understanding of how things work. And for the life of me, I can't figure out how one camera/sensor can figure out who is going through the light and then take a picture of the back.

I might have read somewhere that there are now some 'speeding' cameras. These take a picture of cars if they are exceeding the speed limit and then mail the ticket. New York has installed a few 'radar' signs. These flash your speed in green if you are under or at the speed limit. Then red if you are over the limit. Only a matter of time before they put cameras on these.

Computer controlled traffic lights - this can be done, but there are a lot of variables that have to be taken into account. From what I remember - they generally are set at 5 MPH above the speed limit. Not every road is a good candidate for this automation. How many times have you sat at a red light, no other cars at any of the other streets...

Black boxes in cars - depends on how they are used/abused. We all break the rules a little bit every now and then. Ten MPH over the limit to pass someone. Speeding up a bit to get through the light so the car behind does not hit you.

We have speeder cams installed around some school zones, and mobile units are sometimes deployed on the freeway construction zones. They mail you a ticket.

Have we mention Los Angeles just synchronized ALL their traffic lights?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/u...izes-every-red-light.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[idleprocess]

There's only so much you can do as far as synchronizing traffic lights. Lights on 2-way streets can only be synced for certain speeds, depending upon the signal spacing/duration. The larger problem is arterials intersect other arterials eventually. Often there really isn't a way to neatly synchronize an entire grid. Adding to the problem is what speed do you synchronize at, assuming you have a choice? On streets with mixed traffic, synchronizing for car speeds often means bicycles get stuck at nearly every light (and predictably end up ignoring red lights). And then when any traffic control is overused, it becomes less effective. Community boards often clamor for traffic lights even when evidence suggests they make things less safe.

There are obviously hard limits on capacity dictated by speed limits - specified or simply enforced by the nature of the system- number of lanes, intersections (effectively blocking nodes), etc. These limits are further squeezed by the insistence of planners installing needless stoplights, left turn lanes, and driveways. They are further aggravated by drivers' tending to select the shortest apparent route, failures to understand right-of-way, and general stupidity. One of the major package-delivery companies - UPS or FedEx - shave significant time off their routes by effectively prohibiting left turns. Save for major intersections, it would be beneficial to greatly reduce the number of left turns in most cities off of and on to major arteries.

Like it or not, most areas of the country lack the density, compact urban areas, and layout for walking or cycling to be an attractive option. We can disapprove of how we got there and suggest means of remedying the situation, but that doesn't change how it is and will likely continue to be for some time.

In my region, I see a cyclist using the road legitimately travelling somewhere about once a week. They don't pay road taxes on their bikes, generally can't maintain even your ideal 20 MPH speed, and are highly selective about following traffic controls. Optimizing the road for them would come at tremendous expense to the vast majority of the people using the road, thus makes no sense. Dallas's extremely small downtown area (about 1 mile² for actual downtown, perhaps 2-3 mile² for the extended semi-contiguous cycle/pedestrian-friendly areas) already has 20 MPH speed limits with actual speeds closer to 10 MPH - and on the rare occasion I'm there that's the only place I routinely see cyclists (who must be extremely well-off to live anywhere close, or take mass transit downtown then bike the last mile).

That being the case, it makes more sense to just have a 20 mph speed limit. At that speed you don't need any traffic controls at intersections.

Only if you can reasonably guarantee that traffic won't stop save to change directions.

 

[gadget_lover]

It seems that people are not aware of the use of traffic signals to herd drivers, keeping them out of certain areas.

Streets often have features that make no sense until you think about what they do to your speed or your route. My neighborhood has gently curved streets with a center island that tends to limit your speed. Another neighborhood has deep channels for drainage at major intersections, and they are natural speed bumps.

Our town is located at the intersection of two interstate highways. The interstates have terrible engineering and back up for miles where they intersect. People are tempted to cut through town. To discourage 10,000 cars a day from driving down main street the lights are badly unsynchronized during rush hour. The rest of the day I can get from one end of town to the other in 10 minutes.

My dad is a civil engineer. He explained several ways that city planners can discourage through traffic on side streets and ways to optimize traffic flow. It's really quite a science.

Daniel

 

[idleprocess]

It seems that people are not aware of the use of traffic signals to herd drivers, keeping them out of certain areas.

The Limited Branch Hierarchy concept does plenty of that already - feeders and side streets meander unpredictably and often go nowhere, generally forcing everyone to the arteries. While this is pleasing to residents in the sense that it limits traffic on most residential streets, it also packs the infrequently-spaced arteries by reducing viable routes to but a handful.

Our town is located at the intersection of two interstate highways. The interstates have terrible engineering and back up for miles where they intersect. People are tempted to cut through town. To discourage 10,000 cars a day from driving down main street the lights are badly unsynchronized during rush hour. The rest of the day I can get from one end of town to the other in 10 minutes.

I face a similar dilemma daily - there are but two truly viable routes to work.

The highways are slightly longer, but thanks to some impressively bad decisions - both old (hey - let's drop 2 lanes of traffic onto a 2-lane highway that promptly necks down to ... 2 lanes) and new (let's complete this highway previously served by a 6-lane road with 16+ lanes of right-of-way as ... 2 lanes each way) are oftentimes clogged, made worse by seemingly neverending upgrades to a nearby interchange. Sometimes it's 10-15 minutes, oftentimes it's 40+ minutes inching along in traffic - something I am loathe to do in a 5-speed.

The more direct route to work cuts through a well-to-do town on a road that's heavily-trafficked by commuters as well as parents driving their kids to school. This road is one of the longer north-south surface streets in the DFW area, but it's seemingly subservient to the cross-street feeders that go at most a mile or two in each direction. It's also stop-and-go during morning rush hour, but far more predictable at about 25 minutes than the highways, so I find myself choosing it most days whenever I can see the wall of tail lights on the highway approaching the decision point every morning. If the seemingly-awful timing on the surface street is intended to keep drivers off the road, it's not working - but that might largely be a function of the highways being clogged.

 

[beach honda]

All unconstitutional revenue generating spy machines.

check out http://www.nophoto.com/ and stick it to the man.

 

[will]

All unconstitutional revenue generating spy machines.

check out http://www.nophoto.com/ and stick it to the man.

The system here in Florida does not use flashes.

 

[AZPops]

Just do what they do here in Californny. Don't install plates on your car! ....

 

[beach honda]

I see flashes quite often in the Tampa Bay Area. :shrug: ? ?

 

[inetdog]

All unconstitutional revenue generating spy machines.

check out http://www.nophoto.com/ and stick it to the man.

The product is illustrated being tested against speed cameras, which are more likely to use flash to very precisely show the position of the car at a well defined point in time.
Red light cameras do not have the same requirement, since they are showing the position of a (supposedly) slow moving car.

 

[sfshear]

Getting back to my original question. There has to be a camera that is taking the rear of the car after it passes the red light. Is it possible the camera on the opposite side of the street is doing that? Wide angle lens?

I had hoped that someone here was familiar with the setup I described..

Good question. If the red light cameras detect bidirectional infractions, could the opposite direction camera be used to photograph the back of the car?

My personal experience has been that of a forward camera taking a picture of the front end of my car as it entered the intersection, after the sensors detected it crossing the threshold post-switch to red light. I'd assume legality dictates a front end picture, as I've never seen a front and rear camera setup at a monitored intersection here in Northern California, although I know they exist.

Paying $500 hurt but it taught me to never again toe the line -- both to avoid another five bill penalty, as well as (most importantly) to never endanger others/myself in that way.

 

[will]

Good question. If the red light cameras detect bidirectional infractions, could the opposite direction camera be used to photograph the back of the car?

They have them on almost every traffic light here in town. Federal Highway ( US 1 ) is an 8 lane road with a center median. There are 3 lanes in each direction and a left turn lane. This is a pretty wide road. It is possible that the camera on the opposite side takes the picture.

I'll have to check, but I think that the sensor is also mounted in the camera box on the pole. I do not recall seeing any induction coils in the street, other than those that are used way before the intersection, these coils are used to signal the light that a car is in the street.

The system is supposed to signal a violation when the car passes the cross walk and continues through the light. I think if you are making a left turn and you passed the threshold and can't move until the light turns red, then you go, this does not get a violation.

I though that with all the LEOs here that some would have some insight as to how these things work. I know in NY the setup is different, the cameras are in a position that can take a picture the rear of the car.

One of these days - I'll ask one of the deputies here...

 

[will]

The more I look into this, the more I get the feeling that these cameras are just traffic or surveillance cameras. All the systems that I have seen use at least one camera that faces the rear of the car. The other interesting thing about all this, most states have a 'right on red after stop' In theory, anyone not coming to a complete stop has gone through a red light. I bet that 75% of the traffic rolls through, not coming to a complete stop.