SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 1)

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DM51

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

The bulbs/LAs that will run on 2x or 3x Li-Ions are mostly listed in Post #1. There are a few more recently introduced ones, such as the LF IMR series.

For ~1 hour on 2x18650, the MN20 or MN16 would be OK. They will be over-driven though, so bulb life will be reduced.

For the 3x17670, I would strongly recommend the excellent Lumens Factory HO-M6R. Bear in mind LF rate their output differently to SF. The HO-M6R performance is shown in post #1.

There IS a 3x18650 option - Fivemega's sensational Megalennium body!
 

325addict

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

So, nearly all of these MN XX bulbs are designed to be driven from 3 CR123s in series (9 volts).
As they can be an immense load, one series-stack doesn't make it, voltage will sag in too far, for that reason SF will have decided to parallel another 3-series stack. That's how I see it.

Now, as far as I know, voltage of 3 CR123s in series pretty much is the same (under load) as 2 Li-ions in series.
But in this case, that's different? You wrote, they will be overdriven.

When I put in 2X 17500 in my C3 Centurion instead of 3X CR123A, do I overdrive the P90 also then? I didn't see a big difference in light output. I'll go on using the 17500s anyway... I've got 7 spare P90s :whistle:

EDIT: now I took a very close look at those MN16 and MN20 beamshots and.... to me, it looks like the beams are LESS bright with 2X 18650s compared to primaries.... but you tell me, at least the MN16 is "clearly overdriven". What do I interpret wrong here?


Thanks in advance,

Timmo.


Timmo.
 
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DM51

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Good points... I didn't explain very well. There will be more voltage sag with 3x primaries than with 2x 18650s.

The MN16 is designed to work with 3x primaries, so will be brighter with 2x 18650s.

However, as you correctly point out, the M6 stock MB20 battery holder uses 2 stacks of 3 primaries (3s2p). This arrangement will hold its voltage better, so the MN16 will be overdriven in this configuration. That is why it looks so bright with both 2x 18650 and 3s2p primaries.

The MN20, on the other hand, is designed for the 3s2p primary configuration and will not be noticeably overdriven.

Your 2x 17500s in your C3 have about half the capacity of 2x 18650s, so there will be more voltage sag. The P90s will work fine with them.
 

325addict

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

OK DM51, thanks for these reassuring words. I did my investigations in the meantime, the MN16 lamp assembly has been designed for the M3T, that uses 3 series CR123s. So, in this case, there'll be more voltage sag than when used with the standard M6 battery-holder, that holds two of these stacks in parallel, so the batteries in it can (no, MUST) deliver twice the current in order to encounter a similar voltage sag.... resulting in a higher voltage for a given load, read: the lamp will be overdriven.... I now fully understand!

It's fine the C3 and P90 will work fine with the 17500s... until now, not one lamp flashed. I am still blown away by the performance of that C3 with standard P90 lamp assembly.... let's face the facts, not so long ago only a MagCharger was capable of delivering this amount of light, now the C3 gives that big, heavy monster a good run for its money :thumbsup:


Thanks!

Timmo.
 

mdocod

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

The MN16 on a pair of 18650s is driving the **** out of the bulb. Pushing it into 1111 territory on the output scale but with less power consumption and bulb life.

As far as 3x17670 options go, the new IMR-M6 bulb from LF is IMO the way to go for maximum output as it has a lower chance of pre-mature failure than an 1185 and is almost the same output. The HO-M6R offers a more conservative output (still plenty as most will attest) but offers a runtime that is easier on the cells and more practical in most applications.

-Eric
 

kungfumo

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

I hope this is the right place to put this question. I just put together an M6 with a HO-M6R bulb and I'm using some brand new UltraFire 16340's in it and its bright as all get out.

Problem now is that I went to play with it 2 days ago, and the 16340's were dead, so I put them in the charger and they showed green. I thought this was weird so I checked them with a volt meter and 3 showed 2 volts the others showed "0". I looked the 16340's over and they are dented at the bottom from having to push them so hard into the bat holder, so I wonder if that cooked them?

At any rate I have a few more 16340s that I put in the light all with a freash charge and they did the same thing again. Is it because they are denting on the neg side from being pushed into the holder? What 16340's would you recommend for this setup?

Thanks
Jake
 

bigchelis

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

I hope this is the right place to put this question. I just put together an M6 with a HO-M6R bulb and I'm using some brand new UltraFire 16340's in it and its bright as all get out.

Problem now is that I went to play with it 2 days ago, and the 16340's were dead, so I put them in the charger and they showed green. I thought this was weird so I checked them with a volt meter and 3 showed 2 volts the others showed "0". I looked the 16340's over and they are dented at the bottom from having to push them so hard into the bat holder, so I wonder if that cooked them?

At any rate I have a few more 16340s that I put in the light all with a freash charge and they did the same thing again. Is it because they are denting on the neg side from being pushed into the holder? What 16340's would you recommend for this setup?

Thanks
Jake


The problem I see and I have the same set-up too; is that the 2A of current the lamp produces is too much for those Ultrafires. I use IMR 16340's. They fit right in and can handle the high amp draw.


I used to have a Solarforce 1200 lumen incandescent with 3 trustfire 18650's in series. I killed 3 or 4 cells and when I took them out the voltages were all over the place too. The IMR 18650's would have solved the problem, but I sold the light:shrug: Rookie mistake, but now I know.:whistle:
 

kungfumo

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

I'm just wondering why they are discharging while the light it off? its not shorting out that I can see?
 

Wattnot

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

I'm just wondering why they are discharging while the light it off? its not shorting out that I can see?

I don't believe there is a short or a parasitic drain. I believe THIS is the problem:


I'm using some brand new UltraFire 16340's

He toasted the cheapie batteries, that's all. Trustfires are ok and of course AW's or the ones PTS-Flashlights sell should work great.
 

Patriot

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Problem now is that I went to play with it 2 days ago, and the 16340's were dead, so I put them in the charger and they showed green. I thought this was weird so I checked them with a volt meter and 3 showed 2 volts the others showed "0". I looked the 16340's over and they are dented at the bottom from having to push them so hard into the bat holder, so I wonder if that cooked them?


I'm not exactly sure why your individual cell voltage is so low unless it has to do with the batteries being dented/crushed. I thought those Ultrafire cells were protected from over discharge so damage is my only guess. Btw, Ultrafire cells are 1-2mm longer than any other RCR123 and the ones I've had in my possession were of terrible quality. If you're going to run RCR123s with a demanding bulb like the HO-M6R get some good quality AW cells and save yourself some headache. :)





Bigchelis
The problem I see and I have the same set-up too; is that the 2A of current the lamp produces is too much for those Ultrafires. I use IMR 16340's. They fit right in and can handle the high amp draw.

The HO-M6R was designed to run specifically from 6 AW RCR123's. That
2A load is spread over 6 cells and in within their discharge rate. IMR 16340s also work if you don't mind loosing 30% of your run-time. Certainly and option but not for everyone, including myself.
 

DM51

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Kungfomo... Ultrafire cells have a terrible reputation for inconsistency and unreliability. If in addition to that, they had to be compressed quite hard (probably damaging them) to fit into the MB20 battery holder, so you have a problem which I think will best be solved by tossing those cells and getting some that are (a) reliable and (b) will fit.

It sounds as if you have mashed the protection circuits on the ones that are reading 2.0V, and I can't speculate about the others except to say the low-voltage protection circuit may have tripped.

It is dangerous to recharge any Li-Ion cell that reads much below 3.0V after resting, so I wouldn't try it.

------------------

In posts #383-385 above, mdocod has corrected me on an issue with the SF MN16 bulb - please listen to what he says, as he is more knowledgeable about bulbs than I am.
 

bigchelis

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Patriot,

The stock holder is a 3s2p. I was under the assumption that the current is only shared with cells in parallel. If it was a 6s holder all cells would get hit with the same current. Since this is 2P holder does that mean that half the current is applied to all cells?

I have the Petrev 6 17500 holder which is 2s3P and I think the current will be divided by 3 before it hits the cells.


What will be the current with these holders?
Jose
 

kungfumo

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Thanks for the help guys, I will order some better bats for it. Ya I had to mash those cells to get them to fit so I guess I got what was coming to me:poke::poof:

Any one point me in the right direction for some better bat's?

Thanks again,
Jake
 

bigchelis

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Thanks for the help guys, I will order some better bats for it. Ya I had to mash those cells to get them to fit so I guess I got what was coming to me:poke::poof:

Any one point me in the right direction for some better bat's?

Thanks again,
Jake

The only place I purchase is lighhound.com. You could also go to the market place and one of the venders is AW himself. I choose lighthound because here in CA; the stuff arrives within 2 days.:thumbsup:

IMR 16340
IMR C cells with Petes tail mod STC check the custom section. The STC mod is $25 and allows you to use 2 C cells in the M6.
 

Patriot

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Patriot,

The stock holder is a 3s2p. I was under the assumption that the current is only shared with cells in parallel. If it was a 6s holder all cells would get hit with the same current. Since this is 2P holder does that mean that half the current is applied to all cells?

I have the Petrev 6 17500 holder which is 2s3P and I think the current will be divided by 3 before it hits the cells.


What will be the current with these holders?
Jose



Sorry for the delayed response Jose, I didn't see your post until until just now. :)

...um let's see, yes the stock MB20 holder is a 3s2p holder and the 2.1A current is shared with the cells in parallel. In this case 2 x 750mah cells x 3 combine to share the load. The capacity of the two shared cells is just slightly short of being equal to using one 17670. The 17670's in an FM holder will work even better because there is slightly more capacity with that later arrangement. Still, 3s2p RCR123s can be safely used with the HO-M6R and it was actually designed with this set-up in mind. When I mentioned the 6 cells, I was just speaking generically of they total capacity while combining to work at "13V."

Paul
 

DFLO281

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

How about useing Lumens Factory IMR-M6 1000 with 3x17670?
 

bigchelis

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

How about useing Lumens Factory IMR-M6 1000 with 3x17670?


I just used that set-up last night for a walk around the block after dinner. The IMR-M6 is primarily a great throw light. It has great spill, but the throw is awesome. I used the 3 17670 holder with 3 protected AW black cells. The only issue I had was my girlfriend was walking with me using a P7 Mag Mod and teasing me about her light being better and more efficient.:whistle::D
 

Patriot

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

The only issue I had was my girlfriend was walking with me using a P7 Mag Mod and teasing me about her light being better and more efficient.:whistle::D


LOL, it sounds like you've trained her well. Don't you just love good women who talk "flashlight!" :thumbsup:

I still haven't tried the new IMR bulb in the M6 but I think you just pushed me over the edge. I think I'll order that lamp in the morning. :)
 

Nanomiser

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

DM51 fantastic job on the shootout! :thumbsup: Thanks so much putting this together it has answered all of my questions and so much more. lovecpf

I was having a very similar problem with my MB20 holder and six AW RCR123A cells when running my HO-M6R. They just fit too tight for my comfort level; the holder looked like it was going to fly apart at any moment. After I pried the cells out a few of them also had some indentations left on the negative side and I started to have trouble with their performance as well. :mad: Thanks to AW's help I finally got these cells out of the 0.00 volt dead zone back to a fully recharged 4.10V using my WF-139 charger. :twothumbs I tried using my Triton2, but it just wouldn't reset the PCB protection circuit. I will see how these cells behave from here on.

Here I am still messing around with trying to make my HO-M6R work properly and you guys go and turn me on to the IMR-M6 1000. :eek:oo: Good thing I just order one of FM's 3x17670 holders and now I will also have to order a IMR-M6 1000 in the morning. :ohgeez: :)
 

DM51

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Thanks, Nanomiser. I think you'll be much happier with the 3x17670s, and you won't risk further damaging your RCRs or the MB20 holder.

This is post #400, so we'll continue in Part 2.
 
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