CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral lights?

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ruf997tt

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Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

The bottom photo looks more realistic to me. The greens and browns are better represented.

"High Cri" XPG (bottom) vs Nichia 119 (top)

P1030543.jpg


P1030542.jpg
 

kaichu dento

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

For example. Neutral XML vs Nichia 219

_DSC1550.jpg


_DSC1552.jpg


The 219 blows it away.
This picture shows no clear evidence of anything being 'blown away' other than from a prejudicialy disposed perspective.
The former may show a bit warmer presentation of man-made light, while the second picture shows an example of a very good light source for working under.

Nichia (top) XML (bottom)

10dh2bp.jpg


2l8dqtc.jpg
Not enough of a difference to be worthy of mention. Did you take these pics?

Thanks for posting this hcri xpg vs 119 shots. I own an hcri xpg but have not seen the 119 in person. Are the pictures below of 119 representative of what you perceive? The xpg shot does capture the spirit of what I seed in real life, though it seems richer and a bit warmer to my eyes in real life. Is the 219 warmer than the 119?
He didn't post these pics - they were taken from my thread titled "Not all high CRI's are the same..." and have been misused to promote a mindset that what one prefers is superior to what others prefer. I'm glad you like them and hope that you can use the information to determine what your own preferences are and not let others convince you that they know more than you when it comes to applicability.

"High Cri" XPG (bottom) vs Nichia 119 (top)
P1030543.jpg

P1030542.jpg

[/QUOTE]

When you have better overall color rendering, whatever you are pointing the light at has better depth separation. It's easier to perceive slight shades of color (differences) things APPEAR more natural.
Yeah, CREE LED's are adequate... There are better options if you require more realistic color space illumination however. Pics speak for themselves... I'm sure the Nichia's come to favor more readily with photographers for this very reason.
Excellent posts and presented in a manner that could have made the whole thread better from the start.

I think more accurate colors trumps lumens.
The Nichia's are like trigonometry nerds. The CREE LED's are like brainless steroid bodybuilders. Yeah they have output, but missing acumen.
Nice start to a post that ends with a very poorly presented analogy which insults any that find the XP-G or XM-L to be excellent in many cases.
Your overusage of the smily faces does very little in terms of hiding your denigration for many of the rest of us. There is no 'better' for the whole body of any user group so much as there is a 'better' for this user, that user or application.
As a huge Nichia fan I agree with many of your views, but none of the contempt shown for any whose preferences you find to be 'brainless' and 'missing acumen'.

Now you've very nicely cropped my pictures and once again come up with the wrong conclusion. Both tints look excellent to many of us, including the owner of both lights (myself) and simply show that depending on what one needs, variances between types of emitters need to be taken into account when making a choice.
Just what's on the first page. Searching Google images will show you many examples.
How about more accurately stating that many of the pictures you've used in this thread were gleaned from right here in CPF.
Sure, I didn't mean to suggest lumens have no bearing in eye sensitivity usefulness. Of course it does. But "BETTER" lumens are more efficient at increasing our perception of a target elicited.
Better lumens? The only better lumens are lumens that the end user determines are more applicable to their own personal needs, and can vary quite widely dependent on application.
One reason why I have three lights that I use very regularly that are equipped with the Nichia 219, Nichia 119 (neither of which look like the other tint-wise) and XM-L.

Really? I mean, really? .... Seeing color rendered through "pure" neutral light (sunlight 5500 Kelvin) is a hardwired component of our brain. Opting for artificial lighting that's either too cool or too warm is only forcing our visual cortex to struggle harder, things really look artificial. If you consider high CRI flashlights, the closer we get to simulating natural sunlight, the better the subjects to our lights will appear. Skewing towards "warmer" or "cooler" is adverse to how evolution evolved us to see. These cool and warm tints don't serve a purpose for anything other than being an achievement stepping stone to something better. For now the Nichia 219 actually *is* better

Reminder: Warm and cool wavelengths are not "NATURAL"
Yes, really. Different perspectives will always exist, and your supposition that yours is the only valid one is not only self-deceiving but unhelpful for others as well.

You write as if you were completely unaware that light changes all through the stages of day and night, constantly varying with cloud cover, shadows and reflections, and this fact is all too often tossed by the wayside by those who would claim one specific tint to be the overall perfect tint for all uses/applications.

Correction: Warm and cool tints are both perfectly natural and both regularly produced by our primary, and natural sources of light.

The holy grail of LED flashlight BIN and tints, IMO

1znu152.jpg

ohmo2s.jpg
For anyone wondering the light source is the "SUN"
Like these pics, although the first one looks a bit on the cool side, bringing the reminder that sunlight too changes in appearance when coming from varying angles and situations. Like the way you presented them as 'your' holy grail as opposed to what we all 'should' like.
Second shot looks absolutely stunning for both color rendition and composition as well.

In God we trust, all others bring data.
I know this is just your signature line, but it seems all to applicable to this thread.

Anyway, the illuminance of the mid-day sunlight is tens of thousands of lux. The illuminance of a flashlight is usually very different.
This is one of the biggest parts of the discussion commonly ignored when cherry-picking the CCT of midday sun as the sole perfect light source.

...Sony RX100. The BEST slimline digital camera on the market... the ONLY photos posted in this thread using the Sony RX100 are the six in this post...
Everything else from the strawberry's to the bush and field shots are from various places on CPF and BudgetLightForum. God only knows what awful cameras they where using for those.
Another opinionated post, not to mention insulting once again to anyone not using what the OP proclaims to be 'the best'. Particularly disturbing is how he uses our pictures to support his position, then derogitorilarly refers to the rest of our cameras as 'awful'.

The bottom photo looks more realistic to me. The greens and browns are better represented.
You can find these pics in their original presentation in this thread, which I now plan to update sometime soon with more pics.
It's a caterpiller...:lolsign:
Thanks for the levity!
 
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ruf997tt

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

Personally I have flashlights so I can see in the dark, not to shoot photos with. I can appreciate how some may find a "too blue or too green or too yellow, rose, red, orange, etc. (name your color) not to their perfect liking but I bet when it's dark and they need light they don't stop and say, 'Damn, I can't stand this bluish cast.' and then turn the light off. And then again, maybe some do... :candle:
 

AnAppleSnail

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

In God we trust, all others bring data that supports me. I'd ignored the tone, but let's now review why sunlight is good light:



1. Bright. (It reaches aaaaaaaall the way across a field or valley)
2. Very bright. (Reasonably high lux is the primary factor for being able to accomplish most visual tasks)
3. Pretty good runtime.
4. Variable CCT, tint, and pretty good CRI. (Although, annoyingly, these change throughout the day)
5. Bright.

"What is the best light?"
A good light is one that works well for you for a task. Light is often modeled with these three or four parameters, which do NOT capture all aspects of color perception and task-appropriateness: Output, CCT, CRI, and tint.

Output: Artificial light output levels for all interior design are sorted by task, from 'relaxed' to 'demanding.' http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6840/Lightinglevels.htm has some examples and discussion. For most tasks requiring speed or precision, more light is usually better than less.


CCT is task-dependent as well. For example, cooking works best for me under medium to high CCT light with good-enough CRI. I find that fluorescents over 85 CRI are adequate to good, and LED from 85+ is quite good. Super high CRI LEDs make a little bit of difference, but I find far more benefit from getting the right CCT and tint for a task, than trying to get a single perfect LED… Especially since LEDs of all types I know of change their CCT throughout their current ratings. At very low current the overloved Nichia 219 looks to me like an array of blue-tinted white LEDs, for instance. Crees may shift color by 800-1000K throughout their low-to-high temperature and current regime. I like medium-to-high CCT for cooking, but other tasks may be best served by lower CCT. Among these, preparing for sleep to allow correct melatonin cycles is one.

CRI is overplayed as well. It's sort of an outdated metric, and is obsoleted by the Kruichoff curve. CRI idealizes the black-body radiator as the uber-color-perception device. However, color perception requires photons of a matching wavelength to allow perception of a color. Some people exaggerate the effects of spectral spikes in modern light sources, forgetting the results of these spikes are manageable. Black-body radiators follow a bell curve spectral power distribution so that the ones that allow you to tell indigo from black have unusual tints. There are much better metrics for reporting color perception, but it's a list of ratings, not a single number. Single numbers sell, arrays of numbers get ignored. As in this discussion ;)

Tint is quite noticeable. CCT is a major player in tint, but there are others. Cree's tint bins are fairly wide, but better than LEDs were ten years ago. That's no excuse for the current situation, but there it is. They'll respond to the market, or not. Most LEDs shift CCT and therefore tint through their normal operation range, as in the allegedly "mint green" Cree XP-Gs that came out last year (That were usually more like a drop of mint ice cream in snow at reasonable drive currents). There are varyingly-appropriate tints for different tasks, but it's difficult to separate tint from CCT. So aside from CCT effects, tint in a good light source will not be overwhelming (Few greens, purples, and so on are desired).

When I choose a light for a task, my first consideration is output: Lumens and beam pattern. A given task may call for half a lumen, floody or throwy. Or it may require one hundred, or thousands. The first consideration is, "Are there enough photons?" All else follows. I choose an appropriate CCT/Tint. Most of my lights are neutral-white because I find it to be a good all-around compromise. You may find something different to be your favorite. And then CRI comes in later, because most modern lights are adequate for color perception outside color-critical tasks.

I don't find digital photography to require especially special light sources. I find that light characteristics are far less important than matched lights. Burning kerosene will appear orange next to burning steel. Many LEDs will appear blue next to fire, and cold next to sunlight. So in photos I don't care so much what light I use, as that they all match. And as long as they do match, some CCT will have a natural appearance. In extreme cases (HID arc light, 8000K used for portrait) I have played with saturation to bring back missing red photons. But with or without that editing are striking in different ways.

So: End the tint snob religion. Find what you like, tell people about it, and don't knock their choice. I'm glad you've found what works for you (If you have), and if not? Ask!
 

AnAppleSnail

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I use flashlights to see. I do not use flashlights to take beamshots. Please do try to be more pleasant and less confrontational. It's our forum, and it's up to us (and the moderators) as to what it is like. Since I use flashlights instead of beamshots, I'll have to narrate this:

It's a drizzly night. I'm out on a trip with my Triple Nichia 219 HML and hear a noise. Out comes that light, and on, and... Nothing. Can't see a **** thing, although the raindrops are nicely showing beautiful day-like light. Back to the Mini Mag Lite, which lets me see a rattling branch. No worries!

I don't mean to pry, but do you feel that there is any personal or community benefit from your evangelizing? The tone of it is certainly unpleasant, so I am unclear what your goal is. Mine is to use flashlights, and tell other people about the options present. Not to make their minds for them, or prove that I win.
 

ledmitter_nli

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I use flashlights to see. I do not use flashlights to take beamshots. Please do try to be more pleasant and less confrontational. It's our forum, and it's up to us (and the moderators) as to what it is like. Since I use flashlights instead of beamshots, I'll have to narrate this:

It's a drizzly night. I'm out on a trip with my Triple Nichia 219 HML and hear a noise. Out comes that light, and on, and... Nothing. Can't see a **** thing, although the raindrops are nicely showing beautiful day-like light. Back to the Mini Mag Lite, which lets me see a rattling branch. No worries!

I don't mean to pry, but do you feel that there is any personal or community benefit from your evangelizing? The tone of it is certainly unpleasant, so I am unclear what your goal is. Mine is to use flashlights, and tell other people about the options present. Not to make their minds for them, or prove that I win.

I should put a :D after my post. It's only banter. :D

Regarding your drizzly night scenario; floody light vs throwy light? ..... Even an incandescent can throw with the right optics.
 

AnAppleSnail

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

And so if there are common applications (Seeing in fog, detecting sticks, trip hazards, wolves, raccoons, finding keys) where marginal improvement in color rendering is unimportant, why all the fuss and namecalling? I suppose that in true Internet Forum Argument form I should take the opposite stance that the lumen is king. But there is more to the issue than that, as I outlined in a (rather long, unaddressed) post above. Finally, the governing key is:

What works for you? There are many options. Buy nothing else.
 

ledmitter_nli

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

And so if there are common applications (Seeing in fog, detecting sticks, trip hazards, wolves, raccoons, finding keys) where marginal improvement in color rendering is unimportant, why all the fuss and namecalling? I suppose that in true Internet Forum Argument form I should take the opposite stance that the lumen is king. But there is more to the issue than that, as I outlined in a (rather long, unaddressed) post above. Finally, the governing key is:

What works for you? There are many options. Buy nothing else.

Dood. Yer taking it too personally. :D

BTW: Still waiting on:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4129830&viewfull=1#post4129830

NE1? :D

Not holding my breath.
 

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I personally think most people have lost interest in your self-proclamation to being a tint God. I've completely lost interest in arguing a moot point with you. I don't think you are right. I don't think you are wrong. And at this point I, like many others, are ready to quote Gone with the Wind.

"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

You argue with no point. You battle back with no argument other than no matter what you say I am still right.

You are turning out to be not much more that a thread troll and have just made my most exclusive list of favorite members here on CPF. Only 2-3 have ever made this list and it's generally because I just don't give a s**t what they have to say at all. So, congratulations! You are a proud new member on my list. I call it the "Ignore List".

Are you finding by banter boring because I can just keep going on and on and on and on about how pathetic this thread is and how I have not taken a single bit of meaningfulness out of it. It has not made life better. It has not advanced medical science. It has not advanced digital photography (please see the DPReview on your famed RX100 here: http://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx100 and notice that it only got a Silver Review putting on the damn I wouldn't buy that camera ever list). I can be pretty sure it hasn't changed anyone's mind on their preferred neutral tints because you made no real argument.

In the battle of wits, my friend, you came unarmed.

Please enjoy your life on my new list. :)

Geeze - I should really un-subscribe from this thread so I am not pained with the monotonous replies which are obvious to follow.

More banter on and on and on about the Nichia 219 being gods gift to luminescence. Does anyone even care. It's kinda like reading my response. I am saying so much yet if you read between the lines you know that I am just saying nothing.

Ok - now I gotta go for real - I gotta go snort some XP-G2 neutral goodness and get my crack fill before I really snap.

For the grace of goodness - will a Mod please shut this thread down and put us out of our misery?
 

jorn

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

well the tint god, can for sure tell us witch light(s) in the picture got a nichia 219. Since it "blows crees out of the water", it should be easy.. Manual settings, wb is set to daylight.
It's a mess, but if you prefer, i can take a pic of something colourful using one light pr pic, but it will wont make it more easy.

img7139kj.jpg
 
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ledmitter_nli

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I personally think most people have lost interest in your self-proclamation to being a tint God. I've completely lost interest in arguing a moot point with you. I don't think you are right. I don't think you are wrong. And at this point I, like many others, are ready to quote Gone with the Wind.

"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

You argue with no point. You battle back with no argument other than no matter what you say I am still right.

You are turning out to be not much more that a thread troll and have just made my most exclusive list of favorite members here on CPF. Only 2-3 have ever made this list and it's generally because I just don't give a s**t what they have to say at all. So, congratulations! You are a proud new member on my list. I call it the "Ignore List".

Are you finding by banter boring because I can just keep going on and on and on and on about how pathetic this thread is and how I have not taken a single bit of meaningfulness out of it. It has not made life better. It has not advanced medical science. It has not advanced digital photography (please see the DPReview on your famed RX100 here: http://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx100 and notice that it only got a Silver Review putting on the damn I wouldn't buy that camera ever list). I can be pretty sure it hasn't changed anyone's mind on their preferred neutral tints because you made no real argument.

In the battle of wits, my friend, you came unarmed.

Please enjoy your life on my new list. :)

Geeze - I should really un-subscribe from this thread so I am not pained with the monotonous replies which are obvious to follow.

More banter on and on and on about the Nichia 219 being gods gift to luminescence. Does anyone even care. It's kinda like reading my response. I am saying so much yet if you read between the lines you know that I am just saying nothing.

Ok - now I gotta go for real - I gotta go snort some XP-G2 neutral goodness and get my crack fill before I really snap.

For the grace of goodness - will a Mod please shut this thread down and put us out of our misery?

^^^ (shrug) :confused: :huh2: Also: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4131284&viewfull=1#post4131284

You've stated your opinion. Thanks!

.... and soooooooo, when will someone post an XPG or XML beam tint shot that bests the Nichia 219?

:D
 
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markr6

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

well the tint god, can for sure tell us witch of the light(s) in the picture got a nichia 219. Since it "blows crees out of the water", it should be easy.. Manual settings, wb is set to daylight.It's a mess, but if you prefer, i can take a pic of something colourful using one light pr pic, but it will wont make it more easy.
img7139kj.jpg
Nice lineup jorn! How about the 7th light from the left?
 

ledmitter_nli

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

well the tint god, can for sure tell us witch of the light(s) in the picture got a nichia 219. Since it "blows crees out of the water", it should be easy.. Manual settings, wb is set to daylight.
It's a mess, but if you prefer, i can take a pic of something colourful using one light pr pic, but it will wont make it more easy.

img7139kj.jpg

2nd from the left?

Any labels? Or can you shoot a basket of fruit or garden? or foliage? Flowers?

Just your best "High CRI" XML or XPG tint next to (or can even be pictured separately) a Nichia NVSL219A (commonly used High CRI version). We want to see which LED provides the best real life color rendering.
 

jorn

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

2 from the left is a lf2xt with a neutral xp-e. got one meter snow in my garden, so im not walking there until summertime :)
Nr 3 from the left is a trunite ti with a nichia 219.
Nr 8 is a preon p0 ti with a 219.
Nr 12 is a m61 219.
 
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ledmitter_nli

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Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

Are you finding by banter boring because I can just keep going on and on and on and on about how pathetic this thread is and how I have not taken a single bit of meaningfulness out of it. It has not made life better. It has not advanced medical science. It has not advanced digital photography (please see the DPReview on your famed RX100 here: http://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx100 and notice that it only got a Silver Review putting on the damn I wouldn't buy that camera ever list). I can be pretty sure it hasn't changed anyone's mind on their preferred neutral tints because you made no real argument.

In the battle of wits, my friend, you came unarmed.


BTW:

"Silver Award
The RX100 is probably the most capable compact camera on the market today, combining the image quality benefits of a mid-sized sensor with the proportions of a conventional compact. Extensive, though not flawless, manual controls make the RX100 a great second camera for DSLR shooters."

http://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx100/review

Hey you wanted to drop names. Straight from the reviewers mouth.
 
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