CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral lights?

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

2 from the left is a lf2xt with a neutral xp-e. got one meter snow in my garden, so im not walking there until summertime
Nr 3 from the left is a trunite ti with a nichia 219.
Nr 8 is a preon p0 ti with a 219.
Nr 12 is a m61 219.

Which one is NVSL? Or are they NVSW's?

 

[jorn]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

they all are nvsl.

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

they all are nvsl.

The XP-E could be a contender because of that rose flare around the edges. Would love to see some actual subject beam shots

I'm viewing things here on an IPS LCD screen so colors and whites are presented pretty accurately.

Thanks for taking the time to photograph that lineup :thumbsup:

 

[jorn]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

1

2

3

4
Tossed together some different colours. Used 4 different aaa lights with the same 10440 battery. Same camera settings on all pics. Xp-e, xp-g2, xp-g, nichia 219. Only i know what is what. The cool white xp-g2 is easy to spot. :devil:

 

[SemiMan]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I could easily show a picture that makes a Cree LED look better than an NVSL219 Nichia ...... easy since I know how to use my camera. I just would not waste my time doing it since it proves little.

I do like the 4000K high CRI Nichia. At any lower color temps, there are others out there that are just as good. The Nichia is not "perfect" it is just good.

4000K is a unique CCT in that the eye actually perceives "white" as white at 4000K where as at other colors you generally perceive a tint.

Of course, missing from this discussion is that Cree has both outdoor white and neutral white that comes in neutral white colors and if you are not careful you may end up with outdoor white which is a low CRI, high efficacy product targeted at street and parking lot lighting.

Oh, I could also adjust (or use properly) my camera and get a Nichia219 and Cree (almost anything) of similar CCT and get the pictures to look pretty close.

There was a question on best tints and tolerances w.r.t. price and I think JTR responded to this referencing Mouser and Digikey. There is more to this answer. If you look at what Mouser and Digikey actually stock for Cree, their part numbers are not narrow bin groupings, but wider bin groupings at least at a particular brightness bin. You may be able to buy say an R4 bin of a particular LED, but you will find it is a large bin group. If you want the narrow bin grouping, you will need to drop down to an R3 bin. I often run into this in product development. I could make a run of products at a higher efficiency bin, but if I want to deliver consistent color over time, I may need to drop to a lower bin. The high CRI products also tend to be more consistent in their bin offering but that is also by virtue of the ratio of the phosphor to the blue pump. The more the output is driven by the phosphor output, the less chance for color shift due to pump/phosphor ratio.


Now back to the OP's original post .....

1) No one disagrees that the Nichia219 High CRI in 4000-4500 is not a beautiful LED. Efficiency is relatively low and tends to drop more with temp/current than other LEDs. That also is not debatable.

2) Making the blanket statement that Cree Neutral is awful is ignorant especially when based around a limited sample set.

3) If you understood Cree's product designation, you would realize that 5000K is actually what Cree refers to as Outdoor White, not Neutral White. This is a high lumens/watt product targeted spec lighting for Roads and Parking lots where light levels are at a regulated level and which the CRI can be as low as 65. Their designated neutrals are more in the 4000K range and have better CRI.

4) I have a very hard time believing your original pictures are automatic white balance "how the camera sees them I see them" pictures. The clock face looks perfectly white to me and looks like it takes up about 10% of the picture area. That or the wall is close to white. Automatic white balance looks for an area in the picture that it believes to be white and adjusts the color channels such that that object is white (within limits). Your camera has no idea that your light source has a green case, purple cast, blue cast, etc. Either your camera has done a poor job of automatic white balance or you have your camera on a fixed setting. Either way, I doubt this would have been the perception.

Semiman

 

[kaichu dento]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

Thanks for the replies. However, this all really points back to what's important:
...
Wait. What's that I hear now? Oh that's right. Chirping crickets in the distance.

Empirical Evidence > Sophistry

Your post = unabashed arrogance from a self-aggrandizing CPF snob and troll.

Dood. Yer taking it too personally.

Your making it that way, by design I suppose, but I see you passed over all the points in my post made last night.

I personally think most people have lost interest in your self-proclamation to being a tint God.
You argue with no point. You battle back with no argument other than no matter what you say I am still right.

You are turning out to be not much more that a thread troll...

For the grace of goodness - will a Mod please shut this thread down...

One of the best and most spot on posts so far in this thread.

^^^ (shrug) :huh2:

Hey, looks like you've summed up how a lot of us feel about your posting manner.

 

[bshanahan14rulz]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I'm a runtime snob. Your light sucks. Discuss.
We get it, you prefer Nichia 219 high cri to cree XM-L.
I like apples, but I think oranges are gross. Find me a picture of one orange that tastes better than an apple.

All the fanfare is about efficacy. I can make a 4-up XP-E light put out the same number of lumens as your Nichia light, and it has the potential to last longer on the same battery. Sometimes runtime or efficacy is more important than color rendering. Basically, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you that you like the Nichia 219. But you can't tell people what they should like if they want to like something different.

Jorn, nice photos! I like the light lineup. I agree with moon that where I really see the 219 excel is with browns.

 

[SemiMan]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

The last word ....... or is that a last picture is worth a thousand words ... or in this case last two pictures worth two thousand words ....

The posters original Nichia Image without any modifications:



and then the original posters Cree photo white balanced ... i.e. what the camera would have done if set to auto white balance. I dimmed the Cree photo to match the brightness of the Nichia photo so that comparison was easier.



Looking at the clock, the colors between the photos are very close, almost surprisingly so.

Note, the white balanced image IS what the eye would see when adapted to that light.

... Nuff Said


Semiman

 

[jorn]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I'm a runtime snob. Your light sucks. Discuss.

Haha. im a throw snob, flood snob, runtime snob, tint snob, size snob (enjoy the small lights). Everything about flashlights is about compromices. If you gain in some areas, you loose in other.

-Runtime snob means i favour current controlled lights over pwm. But it will screw up the tint in lo modes. The harder you drive a led, the better it looks How high is the cri from a 219 in a current controlled light when in a 0.1 lumen fireflymode? I'll bet its not that high, and the tint dont look too good. But it will run forever. Pwm will give more or less the same tint in any mode, but with pwm flicker, and way less runtimes.

-Throwy lights cant be as small as i want them to be with the huge reflectors... And since im also a size snob.. well, i dont carry them that mutch unless i really know i need loads of lux :mecry:

-flood lights usually reqiuers lots of lumens to gain the amount of lux i want over a huge area, and that is bad for runtimes or size. Hard to choose between runtimes and size.

-Love to own lots of different tints (as long as they are not butt ugly too to my eyes). And there is no "allaround best tint" as i can tell. Nothing beats a really warm light when im outdoors in the woods or up mounitan doing caveman stuff. Around he house, or outdoors in wintertime it's neutral. Divelights cuts trough water with a really cool white with angry blue. For extra output, a cool white (efficient led) with not too mutch blue/green is king. For preserving night vision, red.

Im having a hard time choosing the "best" tint unless i know exactly what im going to use the light for. I dident really like angry blue until i went diving with one. The warm ones made everything look orange until i took it up mountian and saw the light. I have always liked neutrals, but have found out by trial and error that they are not always the best for everything.

 

[SemiMan]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

-Runtime snob means i favour current controlled lights over pwm. But it will screw up the tint in lo modes. The harder you drive a led, the better it looks How high is the cri from a 219 in a current controlled light when in a 0.1 lumen fireflymode? I'll bet its not that high, and the tint dont look too good. But it will run forever. Pwm will give more or less the same tint in any mode, but with pwm flicker, and way less runtimes.

Below about 10% of the nominal current, the efficiency of the LED drops normally. You would be better using current control down to 10% then PWMing after that. You would of course need to have switch mode driver that runs efficient at light loads. Not all of them do.

Semiman

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

The last word ....... or is that a last picture is worth a thousand words ... or in this case last two pictures worth two thousand words ....

The posters original Nichia Image without any modifications:



and then the original posters Cree photo white balanced ... i.e. what the camera would have done if set to auto white balance. I dimmed the Cree photo to match the brightness of the Nichia photo so that comparison was easier.



Looking at the clock, the colors between the photos are very close, almost surprisingly so.

Note, the white balanced image IS what the eye would see when adapted to that light.

... Nuff Said


Semiman

How do you know the CREE photo wasn't already auto balanced? LoLz.

You'd think the original poster would have said "This actually looks better on the camera than what I see in person."

Original Thread Found!

Notice the "Color rendering comparison.
WHITE BALANCE: 4350K"

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?336907-Post-your-Nichia-219-4500k-beamshots/page4


Anyway I'll post some shots between a few lights soon.

Hoping the thread doesn't get shut down. We know there's a lot of New Age Sensitive people in here.

C'mon, let's keep this rolling it's fun and games.

 

[SemiMan]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

How do you know the CREE photo wasn't already auto balanced? LoLz.

You'd think the original poster would have said "This actually looks better on the camera than what I see in person."

For one, YOU ARE the original poster. You cut and pasted images without any references which means you were passing them off as your own. You used them for a comparison and had no clue w.r.t. what they were. That makes your credibility just about 0.

For two, how do I know you didn't white balance the images ... well cause I have developed cameras, LED lighting, and I know fairly intimately how lighting and cameras interact. I could tell instantly the Cree photo was not white balanced and the Nichia picture was as there was obviously something "white" in the picture. You can Lolz all you want, but YOU are the one that posted the images.

I think someone used the word Troll?

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

"I haven't been this excited about an led in quite some time. The thought of having an led that is around cct 4500k, good color rendition, and very similar characteristically and physically as an XP-G, the imagination goes wild. Hi-cri at 1.4A, triple, quad hi-cri dropins, malkoffs, etc. the imagination and expectations go wild!

Or so that's the hope.

With the Nichia 219 made available to us led lovers, all of these things could possibly come true. However, we haven't seen any beamshots or output from this led. So in anticipation of the eventual pics and posts, I'll start this thread by requesting any pics of this led that you guys have. Beamshots, white wall, comparisons to hi-cri xpg, nichia 119, led swaps, etc would be awesome.

Who will be the first to post a quad nichia 219 p60 drop-in driven at 5.6A?" <---------

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?336907-Post-your-Nichia-219-4500k-beamshots

"Just got my 4500K Nichia 219s from csshih, dropped one in my V10 ti.
Wow. Just beautiful. Got my work cut out for me re-modding my lights."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3929563&viewfull=1#post3929563

"No distance shots yet.
Here's a shot of an SC600 with stock cool emitter, HDS Basic60 with Nichia219 4500k, and a V10R with Nichia219 4500k.
None of the lights were on 100%, tried to get them balanced for a group shot.
The output from the 219 is really a perfect white to my eye. Adds nothing."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3931958&viewfull=1#post3931958

"What's exciting about this LED is that it's the first I've used that I'd actually call neutral. It has almost no tint - it's like you took the "hard white" tint of a cool LED and softened it just a bit (stripping out the blue without adding a bunch of yellow in it's place). The fact that it does a good job rendering color is almost secondary to that.

There's always been the "well, what is neutral?" argument - I'd like to see this become the standard for neutral white light. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that future NW emitters will be compared to this one."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3932283&viewfull=1#post3932283

"Nichia 219 high CRI should be a great emitter for your diagnosis use. In real world use, I can distinguish colors better with 219 high CRI than with XPG high CRI."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945027&viewfull=1#post3945027

"In person the Nichia looked more white than the picture conveys, however, the walls are really that color from 40+ years of airborn coolant and oil. It's a dirty old machine shop. It's as if in person I was seeing the light from the light but the camera captured the color of the wall.
Anyway, the tint of this thing is ruining me, probably mod all my moddable lights with this eventually."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3940006&viewfull=1#post3940006

"The Nichia 219 4500k seems to be the real deal - better color rendition than the High CRI-Cree XPG, yet with a much higher color temperature."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945227&viewfull=1#post3945227

"I know the XM-L is Neutral, but it isn't nearly as white as the 219. It's not yellow, but doesn't really lean toward green. What is that? Just a little gray?
My neutral XM-L NB drop-in is more white than that, but my Quark X neutral is almost identical, while my Xeno neutral XM-L adds a touch of brown But they are all really close.
Through I never saw it as white, I really liked it until my first 219 showed up..."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945239&viewfull=1#post3945239

"Have not seen a 219 yet, but the 119 is about as perfect a light source as I've ever seen for critical situations regarding color recognition. I'm sure that I can't be the only one, but my first test for tints is my hand - I know what it's supposed to look like and the 119 delivers daylight color in spades, much as I'm expecting from my first 219, which should be in my hands the next week or so."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945386&viewfull=1#post3945386

"This is such a great LED, I cant resist installing it into my previously XPG modded lights. This is a sunwayman v10a..."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3953457&viewfull=1#post3953457

"I've just received a couple of Malkoff Modules with the 219 (M61 219 and M61 219LLL) and I'll reiterate what others have said. I was blown away how white the beam looks. Not blue, not pink, not yellow, just white. It's kind of strange because it has made me aware of how much "color" all my other lights have. I'm getting more output from this than I am from my M61w as well. It's a great emitter, it just needs to be in the right reflector. As seen from the dark ring near the outside of the spill on my Malkoff, it's not a drop in replacement for the XP-G."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3940011&viewfull=1#post3940011

Personal testimony has a lot of weight. It just shuts everybody up.

But don't take my word for it.

 

[darkknightlight]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral

Tossed together some different colours. Used 4 different aaa lights with the same 10440 battery. Same camera settings on all pics. Xp-e, xp-g2, xp-g, nichia 219. Only i know what is what. The cool white xp-g2 is easy to spot. :devil:[/QUOTE]

Thanks for taking those photos!
My eyes like number three and four the best; and the oil can (?) In number three seems slightly more yellow than in number four. Could i convince you to disclose which two leds are used in each of those photos?

Edit: sorry, for some reason I'm having a hard time getting the quote to appear as such



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral

Tossed together some different colours. Used 4 different aaa lights with the same 10440 battery. Same camera settings on all pics. Xp-e, xp-g2, xp-g, nichia 219. Only i know what is what. The cool white xp-g2 is easy to spot. :devil:

Thanks for taking those photos!
My eyes like number three and four the best; and the oil can (?) In number three seems slightly more yellow than in number four. Could i convince you to disclose which two leds are used in each of those photos?



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

#3 is the 219 (I believe)

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

For one, YOU ARE the original poster. You cut and pasted images without any references which means you were passing them off as your own. You used them for a comparison and had no clue w.r.t. what they were. That makes your credibility just about 0.

For two, how do I know you didn't white balance the images ... well cause I have developed cameras, LED lighting, and I know fairly intimately how lighting and cameras interact. I could tell instantly the Cree photo was not white balanced and the Nichia picture was as there was obviously something "white" in the picture. You can Lolz all you want, but YOU are the one that posted the images.

I think someone used the word Troll?

Color rendering comparison.
WHITE BALANCE: 4350K"

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3944241&viewfull=1#post3944241

Scroll down.

 

[think2x]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

Nichia has a rose tint like the 2nd from the left.

My Nichia 219 PD32 does NOT have a rose tint at all.

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

My Nichia 219 PD32 does NOT have a rose tint at all.

Then it's probably the neutral NVSW219. The NVSL219 has a slight rose tint.

 

[Norm]

Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

My Nichia 219 PD32 does NOT have a rose tint at all.

Nor do any of the 6 or so 219 lights I own, two being 219 triples. All use NVSL219AT-H1.

Obtained from Illumination Supply.

Norm

 

[think2x]

One of these is a Fenix PD32 with a Nichia 219 and the other is a Quark XP-G from a later Neutral run, but which one is which?

#1



#2