A sad incandescent day today

[LuxLuthor]

I tried looking up the difference between the two terms but came up with negative results. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but could you explain the difference between tint and CRI? I always enjoy learning something new.:thanks:

CRI is an important concept, and one that is not well understood by many flashaholics. There is a pretty good explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index Note the 2nd paragraph where even more accurate lighting models are presented to address even the limitations of CRI. Also note the final paragraph titled Film and video high-CRI LED lighting incompatibility. This also relates to comments that most lighting preferences are subjective or a matter of personal preference, or that only narrow slices of the population can discern an ideal source of home lighting. I'd like to see how any such "blind" lighting studies were conducted, and what agendas were behind whoever paid for the studies.

idleprocess, interesting to see that my latest electric cost is 8.2 cents per KWH here in CT. While I do not question your math calculations, you are not representing the actual average use of home lighting in your assumptions of total expense of bulb & usage. It is why the percent of residential electric bills due to lighting is estimated at 5-15% Your assumptions that markets drive demand does not include the regular barage of liberal energy conservation (& clean energy dogma) propaganda and actual banning of incandescent bulbs first in Europe, then in the USA.

When the bans were announced, stores could not keep incan bulbs on the shelves. Many like myself have already purchased a lifetime of various incan household bulbs. Newer home lighting purchasers cannot vote with their wallet since a ban is in effect, and most people don't know enough to question the assumptions leading to the ban. I was not discussing currently priced CFL, but rather ones that were represented to be "full spectrum" 6-8 years ago. It was about the time all of the toxic mercury hazard cleanup spill announcements came out if one of your CFL bulbs broke. I have had no interest in buying any CFL bulbs since then.

JTR, I'm not seeing the Xicato Artist series being sold after 10 mins of searches, but looks interesting.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

Go to the third from the last page

Thank you!

 

[idleprocess]

idleprocess, interesting to see that my latest electric cost is 8.2 cents per KWH here in CT. While I do not question your math calculations, you are not representing the actual average use of home lighting in your assumptions of total expense of bulb & usage. It is why the percent of residential electric bills due to lighting is estimated at 5-15%.

You are demolishing an argument of your construction, not mine. I am not speaking to any sort of monthly savings that one may or may not see from more efficient lighting. I have oft mentioned that lighting is far down the ladder on the electrical budget of the average residence.

Energy ROI on residential lighting improvements is indeed long and will likely be lost in the noise of variations in major appliance usage. I only noticed it comparing bills once due to complete replacement of all light bulbs in the middle of a 2-month span with fairly consistent usage / weather ... and I'm still not sure if there was something else I didn't account for.

Your assumptions that markets drive demand does not include [...] actual banning of incandescent bulbs first in Europe, then in the USA.

There is indeed significant legislation on the subject of the A19 incandescent bulb, which seems to have done little to affect availability due to delays and significant loopholes. The legislation also seems to trail consumer uptake of alternatives. Arguments about the motives for and appropriateness of such laws is a conversation for another venue.

 

[ampdude]

I found a bunch of old Maglites in a local hardware store recently. Probably gonna pick them up in the next couple days... Some of the packages dated back a long way.

 

[sedstar]

someone up there asked:

"is there anything incans can do that LEDs cant do better?" (paraphrsing...)

YES!

any incan on the market quickly and cheaple becomes a IR illuminator, simply by adding a IR filter...

That said, sure, spec-wise a LED IR emitter is "better"... it makes a narrow nM range of frquency light so you dont ned a filter, your mor efficient because you arent filtering (losing, wasting) light... but this is more EXPENSIVE.

no special batteries the consumer is not familiar with, the "old paint" workhorse incan flshlight their hands are USED TO now serves double duty, simply switch bezels or pop filter cap on and GO night vision.

you can clap a IR fiter onj/over spotlight or floodlight and throw LOT of IR light really FAR... but, LED IR emitters re limited right now that i can see to 5W... i dont even wanna THINK what a 50 or 100 watt IR EMITTER in LED would COST at retail, LMAO...

granted, this is a niche market, so... its not going to help "save" incans retail life if it comes to that, but... someone asked "wht CAN an inca do that an LED cant do?"

 

[cland72]

someone up there asked:

"is there anything incans can do that LEDs cant do better?" (paraphrsing...)

YES!

any incan on the market quickly and cheaple becomes a IR illuminator, simply by adding a IR filter...

That said, sure, spec-wise a LED IR emitter is "better"... it makes a narrow nM range of frquency light so you dont ned a filter, your mor efficient because you arent filtering (losing, wasting) light... but this is more EXPENSIVE.

no special batteries the consumer is not familiar with, the "old paint" workhorse incan flshlight their hands are USED TO now serves double duty, simply switch bezels or pop filter cap on and GO night vision.

you can clap a IR fiter onj/over spotlight or floodlight and throw LOT of IR light really FAR... but, LED IR emitters re limited right now that i can see to 5W... i dont even wanna THINK what a 50 or 100 watt IR EMITTER in LED would COST at retail, LMAO...

granted, this is a niche market, so... its not going to help "save" incans retail life if it comes to that, but... someone asked "wht CAN an inca do that an LED cant do?"

I respectfully disagree. even with an IR filter, the output is awfully inefficient when compared to a properly configured IR LED.

As for cost, I disagree there as well. Take Surefire 6P for example: an IR filter will cost around $40+, whereas buying an IR drop in will be $35 on the high end for a NB unit. You can get them for as little as $15 on ebay.

Not that I don't like incan, I do, especially for cooking steaks on the grill -- but, I can also get pretty darn good color rendition from a Nichia 219. I think that given another 3-5 years, we'll see LEDs with 100 CRI rating, effectively making incans useless.

 

[LGT]

In 3 to 5 years the LED's now used might be considered "useless" because of the inevitable advancement of emitters. Would you toss them all away because there is someting more efficient? IMO the only useless flashlight is one that doesn't work. Regardless of what comes out in the future, my SF E2E incan, even after buying many, many LED lights from high cri to cool white, continues to be my favorite light.

 

[scout24]

E2e+LF HO-E1R + 17670=

also anything G3, (LF HO-9)

and M6...

GOOD incan has a LOT of life left... imho.

 

[Arm and Leg]

E2e+LF HO-E1R + 17670=

also anything G3, (LF HO-9)

and M6...

GOOD incan has a LOT of life left... imho.

With LEDs now getting much better and staying fairly cheap, I don't think it's viable for companies to produce it anymore.
Plus, incandescents are fairly fragile.

 

[idleprocess]

In 3 to 5 years the LED's now used might be considered "useless" because of the inevitable advancement of emitters.

Dollar-store and big-box $7.99 garbage will always get tossed out earlier than their owners anticipated ... but long enough after the purchase that they show up to buy another one of whatever strikes their fancy while being less than their low pain level.

Would you toss them all away because there is someting more efficient? IMO the only useless flashlight is one that doesn't work.

I have a 3x Luxeon III mag-mod that I did many years ago that I still use with some regularity. The amount of lux I need to see in the dark hasn't increased by all that much in that time, nor have the components degraded by much, nor are NiMH cells hard to come by. While it is neither as bright nor as efficient as something using comparable tech today, it still works.

The issue is not so much obsolescence of technology (comparisons to computers always forget the steady change in software that demands steady increases in computing capabilities) as it is changing market preferences.

A more apt computer analogy is how the shift away from desktop computers to laptops and smartphone-based devices like tablets is making the traditional modular desktop a bit more expensive, a bit less widespread, and considerably less available as the bulk of the market loses interest. The enthusiasts will keep using them and the manufacturers will keep supplying it at whatever economy of scale they can sustain - which will likely be stepping down over time as volumes decline.

With flashlights, the volumes are moving to LED. I imagine that cheaper standards like the PR base flashlight bulb will eventually be reduced to niche items first since there is little consumer "investment" in that standard. The marginal producers will go while the more efficient producers will squeeze their sunk costs for the last years of profit. Iconic names like Mag-Lite and Surefire will sustain production of more proprietary bulbs since their customers have a bit more invested in their offerings in the case of Mag-Lite (spare bulb in the tailcap of mini-maglites may well be one of the reasons they undure - when the bulb in the socket blows you have a hot spare ready and just replace the bulb rather than cursing the manufacturer) and a good deal invested in the case of Surefire. In the case of Surefire, I imagine that they make very good money selling bulbs - which is likely why there are 3rd parties that have begun offering replacements at a slightly lower price.

With LEDs now getting much better and staying fairly cheap, I don't think it's viable for companies to produce it anymore.
Plus, incandescents are fairly fragile.

Eh, depends on how hot they run and how they're designed. I would bet on a Surefire P6x / P9x lamp assembly in a Surefire body for shock over some LED flashlight drivers.

 

[kaichu dento]

Shouldn't be a big deal, but I'm just kind of bummed out about that. Also saw that Target was nearly out of incan Maglites, and none of those are likely to be replaced. Especially the Solitaires and Minimags.

I'm a little sad to think of the lights with bulbs, which we grew up with are disappearing - all except for the Solitaire!

Have no plans to get rid of my E1e or E2E - ever!

CFL and LED bulbs just either don't dim low enough or look ugly at low output.

I've got a three-level LED bulb in my room that looks quite nice on low, and I expect we'll be seeing more soon.

I think part of the allure of LED for a lot of us here is the fact that it's a quickly evolving technology.

You may be right about some, in fact I'm sure of it, but I'd say that there are even more, who, like myself, prefer LED's because we were tired of going to use the light and realizing we had to see if we still had a spare bulb in the tailcap, or if we'd used the light for too long and had no battery power left, nor enough batteries in our pocket to reload.

Additionally, after having tried for the longest time to get the same dimmability my home lighting offered into my flashlights, I found it, in some of the newer wave of readily available, long running LED lights, which surpass my favorite incans in all ways, including enjoyability of tint and color recognition.

To sum up, the things I look for in a light when it comes to emitter choice is primarily tint, for both color recognition and depth of field, enjoyability of the lighting itself, durability of the emitter and efficiency when it comes to running out of pocket-power.

Sad to see the classic incans leaving the shelves, but not nearly as sad as many other changes of late.

 

[Patriot]

I didn't read all 71 posts but it looks like Lumens Factory is still producing the E series lamps, which were among my favorites. Their A2 lamps were equally impressive and since I still use them quite a bit, I've got a good supply of them.

 

[Cavannus]

Hi,


Apart from the highest possible cRI, incans show a great pro: most of them are simple, basically built and so easy to repair compared to leds. For instance cavers liked the Petzl Zoom headlamp because you could open it easily to repair it in case of failure, or rebuild one with two damaged Zooms.
Most parts especially the bulb are standard, so you can easily put a brighter or dimmer bulb, or use another voltage with a dummy battery (this dummy battery may be tinfoil + paper in case of emergency), etc.

I remember that when cavers and hikers discovered the first led lamps in 1999-2000, they often mentioned that the lower the battery voltage, the better the efficiency -- hence a significant safety improvement compared to incandescent that was more and more inefficient when dimmer and dimmer. Don't forget that back in these days leds weren't much more efficient than incandescents at rated current (15-20 lm/w).

Another reason why we enjoyed leds was the smoother beam either with 5mm leds or with Luxeon-I replacement bulbs. The "cool white" colour was also new hence a "wow" effect underground (5mm Nichia leds had a quite high 80 CRI), I remember that I experienced my first led lamps as a nice mini-HID/mercury lamp -- while most of cavers really hated this "artificial" tint compared to their "natural" incandescent or acetylene headlamps!

However the warm and high-CRI light of some professional headlamps allow them to remain a relevant choice. For instance, 1-2 years ago a friend of mine worked as a miner in a gold mine. He was part of a junior team and they all were given new led caplamps; the foreman managed to keep an old halogen caplamp (those halogen bulbs are underdriven so that the bulb lasts longer, so the CCT is quite low) and they all preferred his nice warm light, even if it was dimmer than their leds.
Moral of the story: if a foreman chooses old incan and give the new bright led caplamps to juniors, that means that incans remain a better choice!

 

[LuxLuthor]

Great story, Cavannus.

 

[SureAddicted]

I doubt incans are going anywhere anytime soon. The same arguement was had 3-4 ago, and nothing has changed.
Everyone thought when the cassette player came out that records would be dead, and when cd's came out cassette players would be dead. To an extent, some of it is true, but a lot still use records, for the quality of sound it provides. I can go out today and still buy records, but not cassettes. Incans are like records, they will never go away, because there are people who are after a higher quality of light.

 

[jcvjcvjcvjcv]

I think that's more because those old people never heard of SA-CD or Audio-DVD and out of nostalgia. The only thing I hear with records compared to CD's is a lot more noise and long tones having a 'hovering' frequency.

As for the EU's ban on nice bulbs... I hope the EU dies a peaceful death before 'C' labeled Halogen bulbs get banned in 2016.

Oh, on energy costs: for private consumers household use... if you add the fixed monthly costs etc. etc. most people in the Netherlands get to around €0.25 per KWh. With today's exchange rate that's around $0.29
That's around 7 cents real cost per Kwh, 11 cents energytax, ~4 cents value added tax over the previous (yes, we pay value added tax over an energy tax) and some for fixed costs (like the 70 bucks yearly for a standard 1x40A - 3x25A line). For stuff that runs 24/7 we calculate with €2 per connected Watt per year.

 

[mesa232323]

Incandescents these days are inefficient compared to LEDs, bulky, sensitive to shock, in most situations look poorly when the batteries are getting low, get really hot and are susceptible to instaflash. That's why I buy all the latest LED emmiters. As strange as it may sound, I still use the incandescent the most. Even when the situation calls for a long lasting bright LED that I can stick into my pocket, I find every excuse to use the hotwire. I don't know what my deal is! Is it because most of my lights are Mag based? Is it the retroness of a warm glow? Maybe the new emitters just seem to bright. Everything seems pleasant and more fulfilling to my eyes, even before I knew about CRI. I'm like a bug attracted to a porch light. Someone please help break me away from this incand madness!

 

[kaichu dento]

Mesa, while I seldom actually use my incan lights, I can't bring myself to part with them and my favorite LED light is the one that looks like it's an incan! Love my Nichia 219 Haiku for work related usage, but prefer the warmer incan tinted 219 in my V10R Ti the most.

 

[mesa232323]

I recently purchased an L10 with the high CRI nichia and on the lowest setting I feel like the tint is a waste of light. I'm not used to it and frankly I'd rather be creeping around the house with a cool tint if I'm using an LED.

LEDs have certainly come a long ways. I'd love to blaze through my house in the middle of the night with a 1185 but my wife would dismember me when I climbed into bed. FireFly mode is something I can't do with an incandescent unless I hold my hand over the front end and sizzle my fingers.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Incandescents these days are inefficient compared to LEDs, bulky, sensitive to shock, in most situations look poorly when the batteries are getting low, get really hot and are susceptible to instaflash. That's why I buy all the latest LED emmiters. As strange as it may sound, I still use the incandescent the most. Even when the situation calls for a long lasting bright LED that I can stick into my pocket, I find every excuse to use the hotwire. I don't know what my deal is! Is it because most of my lights are Mag based? Is it the retroness of a warm glow? Maybe the new emitters just seem to bright. Everything seems pleasant and more fulfilling to my eyes, even before I knew about CRI. I'm like a bug attracted to a porch light. Someone please help break me away from this incand madness!

Your practical observations and "subconcious" preferences are not an accident. Incans do look better for all of the reasons that Incan Jockeys have always known. Yes there are pro's and con's to each lighting source, and we put up with lower efficiency in return for better color depth and accuracy.

Again, this is the only section in the forum where instead of staying in the LED Flashlights category, LED Jockeys repeatedly come out from under their LED rocks to try and trash incands. They seem to be like LED Moths wistfully drawn to the Incan Hotwire flame, but then are left spiralling to the dirt after their aeronautical incineration.

People pretend that Nichia and other LED emitters are equal substitutes, but other than a few like JTR who likely have a different genetic distribution of rods and cones, all the answers are in those links I gave in my earlier post #61. Despite their desparate struggle to achieve the Holy Grail of 100% CRI, LED Jockeys seem incapable of clicking on links and reading/understanding why even the CRI number alone does not even come close to explaining the visual shortcomings of LED's.

But no matter, we few, we happy few, we band of Incan Jockey brothers will keep the light on for ya as the battle continues.

Coming up on the 4th Anniversary of Saint Incand's Day.

"...Be in their flowing lights freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And warm incan lumens shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that shines his light with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And jockeys of LED's now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their torch's cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Incand's day"
​